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Author Topic: Request: Coin Token Strategy  (Read 6164 times)

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werothegreat

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Request: Coin Token Strategy
« on: December 13, 2013, 03:32:23 pm »
+1

To anyone who has played extensively with Guilds: please write an article on Coin token strategy!  Or at the very least, post in this thread with your thoughts on the topic!
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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 04:04:51 pm »
0

Com tokens are so dependant on the board. I usually just go by feel and what I see available. I am also interested in what some people think about good use of the tokens
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Polk5440

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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 04:10:35 pm »
+6

I can do the second:

When someone buys Possession, that is a good time to spend all of your coin tokens!

Ok, I will take a stab at saying something more profound.

Coin tokens can be:
1) Treated as virtual coin.
2) Used for smoothing.
3) Hoarded for big buys later.

Virtual Money. If you are playing an engine that produces X tokens every turn (on average), it's like you are producing $X in virtual money every turn (on average) in addition to whatever else your deck does. You can count on your overall buying power increasing by that much every turn thanks to coin tokens. Your deck can usually buy a $3 or a $4, but also produces a coin token a turn? Then count on being able to buy a $4 or a $5. Take that into consideration when making your buys.

Smoothing. Is hitting $2P the same thing as losing your turn? Is getting a hand that produces $7 only as good as one that produces $5? Consider saving a few tokens to make up the difference! How many tokens you need to have on hand depends on how critical the gaps are, how many tokens your deck produces, how many you plan on using every turn for virtual money.

Hoarding. Maybe the goal is to produce a large number of coin tokens and go for one big mega-turn (don't forget you need buys!) which ends the game. In this type of strategy, coin tokens to some extent function as a delayed Bridge or Horn of Plenty turn. When to pull the trigger and make those buys depends heavily on what you expect your opponent to do, too.

Pitfalls:

Your goal should be to spend all your coin tokens by the end of the game. If you are not hoarding and you find your coin token total creeping up, 6, 8, 11, 15,... then you shouldn't be so stingy! Buy better stuff! You need to be treating more of your tokens as virtual money and bumping up your purchases to the next level.

Don't feel like you have to use your coin tokens for their intended purpose. The coin token you start Baker games with does not have to be spent on the opening. The two coin tokens you get from Butcher do not have to be spent on remodeling right now. You can spend 0, 1, or even 3 or more, instead! The coin token you get from Candlestick Maker does not have to be saved. Sometimes you need to suck it up and treat your CM as a Copper this turn.  Think about what your overall strategy is and how coin tokens fit into that -- don't think about where the coin tokens came from.

You don't need to trash a card with Butcher in order to bank two coin tokens. Also, you can gain the same card you trash with Butcher without using any coin tokens (e.g. Province). Use this to your advantage.

And I'm not kidding about Possession.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 09:06:03 am by Polk5440 »
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DG

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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 04:28:49 pm »
0

There are some complicated strategies with coin accumulation but often when using coins you just need very good judgement of the value (in your deck) of kingdom cards compared to their cost. That's quite a vague statement, but you immediately need that judgement for the turn 1 choices in baker kingdom. That judgement is needed for investing in your deck or saving coins for later. It's not really possible to write an article about good judgement because it covers so many things.
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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 04:37:56 pm »
0

i wrote this short note on "money smoothing" arguing that it's better to think of "smoothing" as "quantizing" as it's most useful when the only useful price points are separated by a few coin.
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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 05:12:05 pm »
+4

I can do the second:

When someone buys Possession, that is a good time to spend all of your coin tokens!

Ok, I will take a stab at saying something more profound.

Coin tokens can be:
1) Treated as virtual coin.
2) Used for smoothing.
3) Hoarded for big buys later.

Virtual Money. If you are playing an engine that produces X tokens every turn (on average), it's like you are producing $X in virtual money every turn (on average) in addition to whatever else your deck does. You can count on your overall buying power increasing by that much every turn thanks to coin tokens. Your deck can usually buy a $3 or a $4, but also produces a coin token a turn? Then count on being able to buy a $4 or a $5. Take that into consideration when making your buys.

Smoothing. Is hitting $2P the same thing as losing your turn? Is getting a hand that produces $7 only as good as one that produces $5? Consider saving a few tokens to make up the difference! How many tokens you need to have on hand depends on how critical the gaps are, how many tokens your deck produces, how many you plan on using every turn for virtual money.

Hoarding. Maybe the goal is to produce a large number of coin tokens and go for one big mega-turn (don't forget you need buys!) which ends the game. In this type of strategy, coin tokens to some extent function as a delayed Bridge or Horn of Plenty turn. When to pull the trigger and make those buys depends heavily on what you expect your opponent to do, too.

Pitfalls:

If you are NOT hoarding for big buys late, then your goal should be to spend all your coin tokens by the end of the game. If you are not hoarding and you find your coin token total creeping up, 6, 8, 11, 15,... then you shouldn't be so stingy! Buy better stuff! You need to be treating more of your tokens as virtual money and bumping up your purchases to the next level.

Don't feel like you have to use your coin tokens for their intended purpose. The coin token you start Baker games with does not have to be spent on the opening. The two coin tokens you get from Butcher do not have to be spent on remodeling right now. You can spend 0, 1, or even 3 or more, instead! The coin token you get from Candlestick Maker does not have to be saved. Sometimes you need to suck it up and treat your CM as a Copper this turn.  Think about what your overall strategy is and how coin tokens fit into that -- don't think about where the coin tokens came from.

You don't need to trash a card with Butcher in order to bank two coin tokens. Also, you can gain the same card you trash with Butcher without using any coin tokens. Use this to your advantage.

And I'm not kidding about Possession.
This is a good starting point, but usually the correct play is to spend the early tokens early and the late tokens late; or smoothing in the early game and hoarding in the late game, because of the fact that you want to start your positive feedback loop as soon as possible and your negative feedback loop as late as possible. The level of hoarding that you can do depends on the kingdom and your deck, but you should almost always have a number of tokens before you start greening. If there's a +buy and you can generate lots of tokens and still keep improving your deck while doing it, you might want to hoard enough tokens for emptying the entire pile in the most extreme case, and at least enough for a double Province or something like that - having a deck with +buy and 8 tokens means that your opponent has to follow the PPR one Province earlier, and this can be hugely advantageous. Without a +buy, your end game coin token strategy should be a compromise between hoarding and smoothing; you definitely don't want enough coin tokens to buy an entire Province (or, I guess you do want them, but you know what I mean), but you want more than just 1 or 2.

Regardless of the kingdom, try to use your early tokens before your next reshuffle. Plan your future turns ahead and decide, which turn you want to spend the token (often, you will want to spend the token right away just to make sure, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that even if it makes you feel like buying the token producer was pointless). If it's a Witch board and you have $5 now, don't spend your token, but if you have $4, do spend it. If it's a Familiar board and you're opening Potion, you might want to save your token just in case a wild $2P hand appears.
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Polk5440

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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 05:33:01 pm »
0

...you want to start your positive feedback loop as soon as possible and your negative feedback loop as late as possible. The level of hoarding that you can do depends on the kingdom and your deck, but you should almost always have a number of tokens before you start greening.

That is a really good way of phrasing that idea.
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Polk5440

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Re: Request: Coin Token Strategy
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 11:56:01 am »
+2

Here are two example games:

Polk5440 vs. Obi Wan Bonogi.



Code: [Select]
Duchess, Embargo, Pawn, Shanty Town, Conspirator, JackOfAllTrades, Plaza, City, Contraband, Graverobber
Here Obi plays Plaza-Jack of All Trades to great effect. His is essentially a money strategy, saving tokens for smoothing in the mid- to late- game. He has 4 tokens by turn 10 and on turn 11 gains 3 more and begins spending them. From here on out, he uses coin tokens to hit Provinces and Duchies when needed. He cleans up.

Even just one Plaza or one Candlestick Maker can add a lot to a money-based deck simply from the smoothing effect of tokens.

Polk5440 vs. Qvist.



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Crossroads, Swindler, Advisor, Fortress, Scavenger, Bazaar, Butcher, Merchant Ship, Nobles
The key card was Butcher. It was the only coin token producer and the only source of +buy/gain. The important cards of which we both wanted lots were Crossroads ($2), Fortress ($4), and Nobles ($6). Early on I tend to spend my coin tokens in order to get better stuff and thin my deck (Estate -> Fortress, Fortress -> Nobles, Copper -> Crossroads), but also save a few for Smoothing/Hoarding. I plan on ending the game on a triple Province turn, so I make sure I have hoarded 8 coin tokens for the kill (Fortress -> Province, twice; buy Province). Qvist was able to open Butcher, but never bought a second one which was the critical mistake. I lost the Nobles split, had a Nobles Swindled, and probably got rid of my Swindler at least one shuffle early, but good token management and two Butchers gave me much-needed control over the end game.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:58:49 am by Polk5440 »
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