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Author Topic: Edge Case Me  (Read 16454 times)

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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2014, 04:04:52 pm »
0

Again, why would it be correct to firstly not king them, and then immediately king them? As I said, it's easy to come up with reasons why you might prefer not to king a card, but still want to play it once.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2014, 04:14:06 pm »
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Again, why would it be correct to firstly not king them, and then immediately king them? As I said, it's easy to come up with reasons why you might prefer not to king a card, but still want to play it once.
well, the idea is that you want to tell one of the players that you a) have no cards you want to king that draw and b) you have at most one other card you want to king.

e.g., you're trying to trick the other player to trash their tunnel into a 4-cost so that when you 3-pile it you win? (they wouldn't have otherwise because of the risk that you play a militia and so they can discard their tunnel). Or maybe it's near the end of the game and this one player is really losing so you don't mind helping them, so you are getting them to trash their attack card into green which will hurt you more than the third player.

The examples are a bit shaky, but I'm sure there's a way to make it work without counting on other players to make a mistake. It needs to be a 3+ player game where the player's optimal choice helps you and you are making it their optimal choice by passing on the first two KCs so they don't need to worry about you doing something else this turn.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 04:15:39 pm »
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A related problem: Your hand is TR/TR/TR/Smithy/x. Your deck contains no card which you don't want to Throne. Why might it be correct to play TR/TR/Smithy/... instead of TR/TR/TR/Smithy?
you can play TR-TR-smithy-TR-x-x or TR-TR-TR-Smithy-x-x and it doesn't matter.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 04:16:50 pm »
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Sorry, how does that work? I decline to king a card, then I immediately king a card, there is no time in between for an opponent to make a decision based on the false belief that I had no card to king.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 04:17:35 pm »
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A related problem: Your hand is TR/TR/TR/Smithy/x. Your deck contains no card which you don't want to Throne. Why might it be correct to play TR/TR/Smithy/... instead of TR/TR/TR/Smithy?
you can play TR-TR-smithy-TR-x-x or TR-TR-TR-Smithy-x-x and it doesn't matter.
So your "solution" is that there is no solution? Then, to my knowledge, you are wrong.

(I guess I should have added that you do play TR/TR/Smithy/TR/... rather than possibly drawing a Remodel and trashing the third TR.)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:19:49 pm by Warfreak2 »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 04:20:25 pm »
+2

It is a 4-player game.  KC, Masq, Gardens, Silk Road, a discarding attack, and Peddler are in the kingdom.  You are player A, to your left is player B, to his left is C, and to his left (your right) is D.  You know that Gardens are better for you than Silk Road, and you know that Silk Roads are better for B than Gardens.  Everyone knows (from a Pillage reveal or whatever) that C and D have hands of all Provinces.  You have a hand of KC, KC, Masq, Silk Road.  You make an agreement with B that you would be willing to pass him Silk Road if he will pass you Gardens (which C and D will pass since they have all Provinces in their hands and would prefer to pass Gardens).  However, B doesn't trust you to not draw and play a discarding attack with one Masq, then force him to pass the Silk Road that he receives with another Masquerade, so you let the first two KC plays pass to prove to him that the KC'd Masq will be your last action this turn.

So why did you KC-KC-(nothing)-(nothing)-Masq instead of just KC-Masq?  Because you needed to reduce the price of Peddler, of course.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2014, 04:21:38 pm »
+2

I'm not sure if this fits your scenario, but I was thinking that if you have two Durations you want to King, as you work your way back up your KC chain, you may want to skip playing a Duration with the last use of a KC-KC, then immediately play it with a higher KC in your chain and the other Duration, so that you only need to leave one KC out as a reminder.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't fit the specifics you gave, at least not based on your example, but maybe it's still interesting.

I'm also not really sure about the KC-Duration rule either, so I could be getting that all wrong.

edit: This should work for the TR example, if I understand the Duration ruling correctly.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:25:06 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014, 04:28:01 pm »
0

Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:30:13 pm by Warfreak2 »
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2014, 04:32:08 pm »
+3

Your hand is KC x2, Mountebank x2, and one more. But your opponent could have a Trader in hand. So your first selection is to KC-KC-nothing, and you use this opportunity to watch your opponent for tells. Rapid blinking, subtly touching his cards, jitteriness, and so forth. Possibly he'll wipe his sweaty brow with a handkerchief. This will give you a better indication as to whether you should actually play the Mountebanks afterward.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2014, 04:35:49 pm »
0

Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?

But wait, didn't they change the rule so that only one KC stays out instead of all of them?
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 04:39:19 pm »
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It has to be the KC which directly played the duration card.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 04:43:24 pm »
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It has to be the KC which directly played the duration card.

Oh okay so, for example, KC1->KC2-> Caravan, draw a KC3, Caravan, Smithy.  Choose KC3 to play on KC2's second play, choose Smithy, draw stuff.  Neglect to play Caravan with KC3 so you can instead play it with KC2 so that only KC2 stays out and not KC2 and KC3.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2014, 05:01:29 pm »
+1

okay, more fleshed-out example:

3 player game. you are player 1 and have, say, 24 points. player 2 has 25 points. player 3 has 29 points. there are 2 provinces left, and a three-pile is not a threat. It's your turn.

You have a starting hand of spy-necropolis-laboratory-cutpurse-duchess.  You play necropolis, then cutpurse (you do this first because you know neither player has any copper and you want to see their hands). player 2 has a counterfeit, a gold, and 3 useless cards in their hand. They also have a caravan in play. player 3 has KC-KC-bridge-bridge-bridge. Then you play lab and draw two KC.

Now your hand is KC-KC-spy-duchess, you have 1 action left, 2$, 1 buy. You play KC-KC-spy to start. You draw 3 useless cards, discard 2 useless cards, and the last one doesn't matter. What player 3 reveals doesn't matter. You have been tracking player 2's deck (by playing cutpurse) and their last cards are 20 golds, 1 abandoned mine, and 3 useless cards. You luckily hit the abandoned mine right away, and leave it there.

And now here's the best part. You pass on your second KC action, then KC the duchess. This tells player 2 that you aren't going to be getting any additional buys because you are now out of actions (you don't have a counterfeit in your deck). You have exactly 8$ and are going to be buying the penultimate province, which he knows you know is the right move because you saw player 2's hand. He knows that buying the province is the only way for you to get second place, because otherwise Player 3 will get a turn and P1 will lose. So while he will almost certainly be able to get a gold by discarding to the duchess, he won't need to be able to get an estate with his province, and there is a slim chance he can't get a gold. The only way to guarantee the win is to keep the abandoned mine. If you had played the duchess second, he would have thought you were probably playing another action, possibly getting another buy and maybe more money, so I might have been able to add on an estate. In this case, P2 would have gone for the gold that he almost certainly would get so that he can get an estate as well as a province on his turn.

So P2 leaves the abandoned mine, and you buy the penultimate province. P2 then draw and plays the abandoned mine, counterfeits the gold, and buys the last province. ending the game. final scores: P1: 30, P2: 31, P3: 29.

The only way for P1 to get second place instead of last was for him to do nothing for the second KC action.

now, how the game got to this state, and if there are too many kingdom cards, I have no idea.

Someone's gonna reply with a simple 1 card solution now.

Pre-Post-Edit: darn, looks like an answer got posted while I was working on this.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 05:03:45 pm »
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You make an agreement with B that you would be willing to pass him Silk Road if he will pass you Gardens
If I were B I would break the deal and keep the gardens and silk road...
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2014, 05:05:01 pm »
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You play KC-KC-spy to start. [...] you are now out of actions
No you aren't, Spy gives you three more.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 05:09:55 pm »
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You play KC-KC-spy to start. [...] you are now out of actions
No you aren't, Spy gives you three more.
ah, initially I had you playing the spy outside of the KC... darn. Well in that case it's actually a mistake to play the spy inside the KC, because then P2 thinks you might still play an action, and you are relying on P2 to leave the abandoned mine. so play it outside of the KC chain, you still draw 1 useless card that P2 wouldn't otherwise know is useless.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 05:15:55 pm »
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I'll presume you need to KC/KC rather than just KC/Duchess because you also need to king an Abandoned Mine to get to $8. Then it seems like you have a solution, and I think around here you get bonus points for extreme convolution.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2014, 05:27:32 pm »
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I'll presume you need to KC/KC rather than just KC/Duchess because you also need to king an Abandoned Mine to get to $8. Then it seems like you have a solution, and I think around here you get bonus points for extreme convolution.
no, I have 2 from cutpurse and 6 from duchess. I need to use 2 KC because... ugh, I dunno.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2014, 05:29:10 pm »
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Well anyway, I think it's clear that there's some way to make it work by giving your opponent information you need them to have.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 05:32:43 pm »
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Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?

Because you revealed your hand, so he knows that you will be forced to pass him a Silk Road if you play Masquerade (which I guess is also a reason you would play two KC's, instead of reducing the price of peddler).
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2014, 05:40:32 pm »
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Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2014, 05:43:25 pm »
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Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2014, 05:45:12 pm »
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Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
if your hand was revealed, then it wasn't you who played the pillage, in which case player D's hand wasn't revealed. (he must have played the pillage). Maybe you played a pillage as well?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2014, 05:46:37 pm »
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Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
if your hand was revealed, then it wasn't you who played the pillage, in which case player D's hand wasn't revealed. (he must have played the pillage). Maybe you played a pillage as well?

Right, both you and another player had played Pillage.
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liopoil

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Re: Edge Case Me
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2014, 05:54:30 pm »
+1

cool. Still, why did he give you the gardens when he doesn't need to? He's getting the silk road either way
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