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Author Topic: Revised versions of published cards  (Read 106093 times)

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Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2018, 12:56:57 pm »
0

If I had a Silver for every time people badmouth treasures, I'd be a rich man.

Does Copper count to that?

And I think when people think "Treasure" they think about how it clogs your engines (i.e. Silver), even though there are Treasures that work great in engines (i.e. Fortune and Crown).

When I say "badmouth", I mean "make it seem worse than it is". It's hard to badmouth Copper, unless you claim things like "Copper is worse than Curse".
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Awaclus

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2018, 01:43:46 pm »
+5

If I had a Silver for every time people badmouth treasures

You wouldn't be able to draw your deck.
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Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2018, 01:49:27 pm »
+3

If I had a Silver for every time people badmouth treasures

You wouldn't be able to draw your deck.

The goal of the game is to have the most points, not drawing your deck. Sometimes the best way to do the former is the latter. Sometimes it just isn't.

This discussion derails this thread and it's my fault, so reply to this if you feel like it, but I'd rather have a "Let's discuss: Silver" thread.
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markusin

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2018, 06:43:23 pm »
+1

Before Miserable was revealed, I wouldn't have been surprised by a Doom card that sets aside two Hexes at setup, letting players choose which one hits them Torturer style.

I guess I could work that into an Event or a card with Miserable banned or something.

I think it could work even with Miserable included. -4 points is fairly relevant, and card-shaped things need not always be awesome.  :)
I would be more concerned about having two indefinitely stackable attacks out (War, Locusts, Greed), or Deluded plus an indefinitely stackable attack.

Really, with the amount of concessions you'd have to make to make set-aside Hexes, work, the whole set of Hexes would need to be reworked, or just create an entirely different attack for Tormentor. Raider already exists in Nocturne, so there is no law about not having non-hex attacks. As is, the Hexes seem balanced around being in a cycle of 12.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #204 on: March 10, 2020, 11:27:24 am »
+2

Let's necro this thread again! I've been looking through my imgur and found this.



This is something I suggested at the time, but noooooo, Donald X. was all, "You know what would be better than nothing? Anything!" and Sauna got its trashing ability.

Anyway, here's a simpler Sauna for $2.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #205 on: March 10, 2020, 11:29:20 am »
+3

I've actually made quite a few more changes to my personal cards over the last couple years. If I can remember I'll upload Margrave, Cache, Mandarin, and whatever else I've got when I get the chance.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #206 on: March 10, 2020, 01:40:05 pm »
+7

You know what Transmute should gain when you trash a Treasure? A Horse. I gotta remember to mock that one up tonight.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #207 on: March 10, 2020, 10:51:17 pm »
+3



The Hinterlands crew! The changes to Duchess, Cache, and Margrave are ones Donald X. said he himself would make to Hinterlands, so I mocked those up. I didn't have the heart to remove Fool's Gold's reaction, as Donald X. would have done. The Mandarin boost is my own idea. It's seemed reasonable in the games I've played with it. Certainly it looks more natural now that we have so many +$3 Actions at $5 without a drawback (Legionary, Treasurer, Livery, etc.).

Here's the return of Chancellor! And also Woodcutter?



Less interesting since Messenger exists (I have only myself to blame for that), but a reasonable addition to the Base Set. I added it as a 27th card in my own copy.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:26:05 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #208 on: March 10, 2020, 11:24:12 pm »
+3

Aaaaand done with Transmute. Turn that Potion into a Horse! This is untested and I don't expect it to become a power card, but I bet it's worth pick up more often now.

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #209 on: March 10, 2020, 11:37:26 pm »
+1

Transmute (and potion costs in general) is an outstanding candidate for on gain/buy +buy
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #210 on: March 10, 2020, 11:44:58 pm »
0

Making it impossible for Transmute to gain a Transmute seems like "killing the darling" :/  I don't care whether it can gain a Gold or a Duchy, but gaining itself at least some of the time is the meme.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #211 on: March 10, 2020, 11:48:17 pm »
+2

Experiment is a card which would work fine as an event (Gain 2 Horses)

Every card that could be an event should be one IMO. You lose a bit by not being able to gain the card, but the space it saves can make room for more cards. Cache, Masterpiece, IGG should all be events (replace IGG's on play with being a Silver and Copper, and buff the other 2)
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spineflu

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #212 on: March 11, 2020, 10:59:15 am »
0

Making it impossible for Transmute to gain a Transmute seems like "killing the darling" :/  I don't care whether it can gain a Gold or a Duchy, but gaining itself at least some of the time is the meme.

So are you thinking make it a choice (gain a Horse or a Transmute) or make it a both?

Experiment is a card which would work fine as an event (Gain 2 Horses)

Every card that could be an event should be one IMO. You lose a bit by not being able to gain the card, but the space it saves can make room for more cards. Cache, Masterpiece, IGG should all be events (replace IGG's on play with being a Silver and Copper, and buff the other 2)

Small disagree with IGG - using it as TfB fodder is like, my favorite part of the card.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:02:01 am by spineflu »
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #213 on: March 11, 2020, 02:42:30 pm »
+1

A choice sounds fine.  It could also simply happen when you trash a Night, my interest in it is that empty and symbolic.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #214 on: March 11, 2020, 03:15:43 pm »
+2

Small disagree with IGG - using it as TfB fodder is like, my favorite part of the card.

Agree. I also enjoy gaining Caches to hand or onto my deck with Artisan, Develop, etc. In general I do not subscribe to "always make it a landscape if possible".

In general I also don't like to mix set mechanics, but because I keep my landscapes all together with my base cards, I'm going to have to always have Horses with me anyway. I had a long-standing plan to have Transmute gain some cheap, non-Supply Action of my creation, but now that we have Horses and I haven't come up with anything better, I'm going with them.

Making it impossible for Transmute to gain a Transmute seems like "killing the darling" :/  I don't care whether it can gain a Gold or a Duchy, but gaining itself at least some of the time is the meme.

Some people just want to watch the world burn.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #215 on: March 11, 2020, 03:52:22 pm »
+1

How would you like these changes?

Quote
Mine (Action, $5)
+1 Coffers
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing at most $3 more than it into your hand

Makes it a terminal silver rather than a terminal copper. Used +1 Coffers to fit the long term benefit mantra.

Quote
Harem (Treasure/Victory, $6)
$2
+2 buys
-
2 VP
In games using this, when you gain a Gold, you may exchange it for a Harem

There are now quite a few Gold gainers, and this change makes these gainers more valuable late game. +2 buys fits well with the 2 of everything theme, and makes it more useful in general.

Quote
Cursed Village (Action, $5)
+2 Actions
Draw until you have six cards in hand.
-
When you gain this, take "Cursed entry"
Quote
Cursed entry (state)
At the start of your turn, discard down to 3 cards in hand and return this.

This is less random and also can be a synergy if your next hand contains a Cursed Village.

Quote
Stash (Treasure, $5)
$2
If you have played at least 2 Actions this turn, you may put your deck into your discard pile.
-
When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

Stash is only good with Chancelor/Scavenger, so it may be best to impose conditions where Stash does the trick itself.
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #216 on: March 11, 2020, 04:26:24 pm »
0

Shuffling every turn IRL sucks though (I am Criticizing Official Cards here, I'm not crazy about Scavenger really).
Also, stash's "honest" usage comes the closest to competing with other strategies when the game is a slog.  Making it key in on a condition that signals the gametype is enginebased likely means it is buffed only in games where there are even stronger incentives to stay away from 5$ Silver than usual.  You want this to trigger on buying a victory card or a Gold entering play or somesuch.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #217 on: March 11, 2020, 05:19:54 pm »
+2

The other benefit of making IGG a landscape is it prevents IGG rushes leading to early game endings, though that was more of a problem 5 sets ago.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:21:12 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #218 on: March 11, 2020, 10:35:23 pm »
+2

Mine (Action, $5)
+1 Coffers
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing at most $3 more than it into your hand

I think if you wanted to make Mine a decent $5 card, giving it +$1 would be sufficient. I bet +1 Coffers is even a bit overboard, power-wise. Plus it's introducing a new mechanic to the card, making it especially not at home in the base set. I know I added Horses to Transmute, but in order to keep the core concept of that card, it had to gain some specific Action, and gaining another Transmute is usually just awful. I might yet replace Horse with some other custom Action card.

All that being said, I like Mine fine as it is. I still buy it, what can I say.

Harem (Treasure/Victory, $6)
$2
+2 buys
-
2 VP
In games using this, when you gain a Gold, you may exchange it for a Harem

Well it's a neat idea, Gold replacement. I would not use it here though, because that's three kinds of timing, needing two dividing lines. Also I like Harem for $5 just fine. I like to maintain simplicity where I can.

Cursed Village (Action, $5)
+2 Actions
Draw until you have six cards in hand.
-
When you gain this, take "Cursed entry"
Quote
Cursed entry (state)
At the start of your turn, discard down to 3 cards in hand and return this.

OK well here you're just asking the wrong audience. Basically the only two groups the tested Nocturne were Donald X.'s group and my group. We really like Hexes. If we didn't, it's possible they wouldn't be in Nocturne at all. I don't want Cursed Village to be less random! That's half the fun.

Also I don't love how the penalty becomes an advantage once you start having Cursed Villages in your hands. Discard two cards, but then draw up to 6? Yes please.

Stash (Treasure, $5)
$2
If you have played at least 2 Actions this turn, you may put your deck into your discard pile.
-
When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

That reminds me.



Again, I go simpler when possible. And I'm at the point in my Dominion-testing and fan-card-making career that I can say, I don't believe in the "no Silver+ for $4" rule anymore. My feeling is, if you're playing the kind of engine board that's likely to 3-pile, chances are you are not running out the Stashes. And on money-ish boards, I sure would rather buy Stash for $4 over another Silver. Spice my deck up a little, you know? Somehow Patron isn't ruining the games its in, and I doubt $4 Stash will either.

Anyway, sorry for being such a naysayer. A lot of this is just a difference in design philosophy between the two of us.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #219 on: March 11, 2020, 10:48:57 pm »
+4

Seaside changes I'm thinking of trying soon:



Also, far more experimentally:



I'm very interested in feedback on this one especially. My intuition is that it's very weak early, and maybe too weak overall.
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faust

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #220 on: March 12, 2020, 06:05:51 am »
+4

Aaaaand done with Transmute. Turn that Potion into a Horse! This is untested and I don't expect it to become a power card, but I bet it's worth pick up more often now.


Seems like all those Experiments have finally paid off!
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faust

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #221 on: March 12, 2020, 06:15:45 am »
0



I'm very interested in feedback on this one especially. My intuition is that it's very weak early, and maybe too weak overall.
Should definitely be a Command card and say "play one of the discarded non-Command cards". Compared to Tribute, I'm not sure it should be an Attack.

I think this version maintains Pirate Ship's issue of scaling very strongly with player count. Also, it should probably cost $2.
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D782802859

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #222 on: March 12, 2020, 06:27:45 am »
0

Pirate Ship should either dig for a treasure or action or have another resource other than action, because it's going to miss a lot. The Merchant Ship and Wharf changes are actually ones I've been thinking about myself, and they bring both of these cards into line well. Sea Hag is way too weak now, it isn't strong as a 5 curser with just terminal copper. I'm surprised there isn't a Navigator change, most think it's a dud and I'm inclined to agree.
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #223 on: March 12, 2020, 11:08:00 am »
+1

That Pirate Ship bears no resemblance to the official card?  Like it's a cool fan card but I have little to no understanding of calling it a revised official card. 
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #224 on: March 12, 2020, 11:32:13 am »
0

That Pirate Ship bears no resemblance to the official card?  Like it's a cool fan card but I have little to no understanding of calling it a revised official card.

That's a good call. I have another version in the works that's much closer. That being said, I want a replacement that's less wordy (ideally using the large font size) and hopefully doesn't help opponents more than it helps you. I could name it something else, though.
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