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Author Topic: Revised versions of published cards  (Read 106074 times)

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Accatitippi

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #175 on: December 13, 2017, 03:25:28 am »
+4

Harem is also essentially replaced by Conquest, which is almost-but-not-quite strictly better. (if you want a 6$ silver, you're probably happy to get two, so the only real case for Harem is needing a Victory-Treasure card for some reason)
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loneXolf

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #176 on: December 13, 2017, 04:09:55 am »
0

I am a fan of the harvest change, not so much the other 3.
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Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #177 on: December 13, 2017, 06:28:48 pm »
+2

Harem is also essentially replaced by Conquest, which is almost-but-not-quite strictly better. (if you want a 6$ silver, you're probably happy to get two, so the only real case for Harem is needing a Victory-Treasure card for some reason)

(Insert Sudden Clarity Clemence meme here)

Wow, even more than Wedding. Neat observation.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2017, 04:43:10 am »
0

I'm surprised by how well Tracker works, which got me thinking...

Royal Seal
Treasure - $5
Worth $2
+1 Buy
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.

This allows Royal Seal to better set up combos. Or maybe even...

Royal Seal
Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.

Or even

Royal Seal
Action - $2
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2017, 03:20:49 am »
0

Since Druid had such exceptional variety, and some cards aren't very interesting

Tragic Hero:
Action/Fate - $5
Receive the set-aside Boon, then +3 Cards
If you have 8 or more cards in hand, trash this and gain a Treasure.
---
Setup: Set aside a Boon that doesn't give +$1, face up

Tormentor:
Action/Attack/Doom - $5
+$2
If you have an Imp in play, each other player receives the set-aside Hex. Otherwise, gain an Imp from its pile.
---
Setup: Set aside a Hex other than Delusion or Misery

Bard:
Action/Fate - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Receive one of the set aside Boons
---
Setup: Set aside 2 Boons face up
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 05:08:29 am by NoMoreFun »
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Gazbag

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #180 on: December 30, 2017, 07:32:26 am »
+1

Since Druid had such exceptional variety, and some cards aren't very interesting

Tragic Hero:
Action/Fate - $5
Receive the set-aside Boon, then +3 Cards
If you have 8 or more cards in hand, trash this and gain a Treasure.
---
Setup: Set aside a Boon that doesn't give +$1, face up

Tormentor:
Action/Attack/Doom - $5
+$2
If you have an Imp in play, each other player receives the set-aside Hex. Otherwise, gain an Imp from its pile.
---
Setup: Set aside a Hex other than Delusion or Misery

Bard:
Action/Fate - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Receive one of the set aside Boons
---
Setup: Set aside 2 Boons face up

I can understand Bard and Tormentor, but how is Tragic Hero not very interesting? It's one of the most interesting cards in Nocturne!
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enfynet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #181 on: December 30, 2017, 02:53:34 pm »
0

Because of the "vanilla" nature of +Cards?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #182 on: December 30, 2017, 03:18:41 pm »
0

Many of the Hexes cannot work as Attack cards, so this version of Tormentor doesn’t work. Imagine having Deluded every turn. Enjoy that game!
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Gazbag

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2017, 04:33:19 pm »
+2

Many of the Hexes cannot work as Attack cards, so this version of Tormentor doesn’t work. Imagine having Deluded every turn. Enjoy that game!

It does say instead of Deluded or Misery, but I do agree with you. Druid is cool and all, but we don't 3 different Druid variants or a Hex-Druid. It just becomes "If the Boon/Hex is good, this card is good and if they aren't then they aren't." Which to me is much less interesting than the printed cards.

Because of the "vanilla" nature of +Cards?

Werewolf plays much closer to a "Vanilla Smithy" than Tragic Hero.
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dz

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #184 on: December 31, 2017, 04:14:53 am »
0

Tragic Hero:
Action/Fate - $5
Receive the set-aside Boon, then +3 Cards
If you have 8 or more cards in hand, trash this and gain a Treasure.
---
Setup: Set aside a Boon that doesn't give +$1, face up


Why would you need this edited Tragic Hero to exclude Field and Forest's Gift? If Druid allows it, why can't this allow it?

Also I don't see how setting aside a Boon adds to the card. I know that Druid has a ton of variety and that's what you're trying to go for, but wouldn't "receive a Boon" be simpler?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Donald said that drawing cards + receiving Boons = super slow turns. Especially with this card always giving you a Boon and drawing cards every time you play it. Yes, it can fairly easily get trashed, but that doesn't save it from Thrones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 04:24:07 am by dz »
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loneXolf

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #185 on: December 31, 2017, 07:45:56 am »
+1

Many of the Hexes cannot work as Attack cards, so this version of Tormentor doesn’t work. Imagine having Deluded every turn. Enjoy that game!

It does say instead of Deluded or Misery, but I do agree with you. Druid is cool and all, but we don't 3 different Druid variants or a Hex-Druid. It just becomes "If the Boon/Hex is good, this card is good and if they aren't then they aren't." Which to me is much less interesting than the printed cards.

Because of the "vanilla" nature of +Cards?

Werewolf plays much closer to a "Vanilla Smithy" than Tragic Hero.

I think that he wants cards that change effects every game rather than RNG, I do see it's potential and I would probably like it better than the current hex and boons (not a huge fan myself). But turning multiple cards into druid does take it's current "star power". Also the boons and hexs are not really built for this. Also I never seen anyone hate on Werewolf, probably since it has the koolest card typing beside Crown.

Card reviews-

Tragic Hero- I don't think Tragic hero needs a buff, +3 cards and a buy isn't bad for 5.

Tormentor- Cute rework, I would also remove Envy for this effect. Repeating Locusts and War can be triggering.

Bard- This looks to make bard extremely strong.

Set aside- Do these reworks share the set-aside cards? Can Bard use druid's set aside cards for example? Also if Bard, Druid, and Tragic Hero are in play it cuts the boon deck in half.
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weesh

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #186 on: December 31, 2017, 09:42:29 am »
+2

one of my play group is pushing me to sharpie "The Mountain's Gift" to "you MAY gain a silver".
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markusin

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #187 on: December 31, 2017, 05:06:00 pm »
+1

one of my play group is pushing me to sharpie "The Mountain's Gift" to "you MAY gain a silver".

Mountain's Gift teaches you to adapt, and you just might find it isn't such a bad thing after all.

That said, why it doesn't have a "may" in there is somewhat baffling. Messing with Devil's Workshop for example. Actually, Swamp's Gift doesn't have a "may" for the Wisp gain either. How come no one complains about that?
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #188 on: December 31, 2017, 05:56:45 pm »
0

Actually, Swamp's Gift doesn't have a "may" for the Wisp gain either. How come no one complains about that?

Silver is bad for engines but cantrips that sometimes become Laboratories are pretty much always good.
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Gazbag

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #189 on: December 31, 2017, 10:08:17 pm »
+5

Actually, Swamp's Gift doesn't have a "may" for the Wisp gain either. How come no one complains about that?

Silver is bad for engines but cantrips that sometimes become Laboratories are pretty much always good.

Buying Silver is often bad, but free Silver? Woohoo! Like seriously if you're building an engine that's shaky enough that adding 1 Silver is bad then you should just not buy any Fate cards or build a better deck. Like Sea/Windy gift triggering bad shuffles is so much worse and bad so much more often than Mountain Silver. The way people talk you'd think Embassy is the strongest attack in the game or something.
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Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #190 on: December 31, 2017, 10:13:57 pm »
+1

Before Miserable was revealed, I wouldn't have been surprised by a Doom card that sets aside two Hexes at setup, letting players choose which one hits them Torturer style.

I guess I could work that into an Event or a card with Miserable banned or something.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #191 on: January 01, 2018, 01:24:43 am »
0

Tragic Hero:
Action/Fate - $5
Receive the set-aside Boon, then +3 Cards
If you have 8 or more cards in hand, trash this and gain a Treasure.
---
Setup: Set aside a Boon that doesn't give +$1, face up


Why would you need this edited Tragic Hero to exclude Field and Forest's Gift? If Druid allows it, why can't this allow it?

Also I don't see how setting aside a Boon adds to the card. I know that Druid has a ton of variety and that's what you're trying to go for, but wouldn't "receive a Boon" be simpler?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Donald said that drawing cards + receiving Boons = super slow turns. Especially with this card always giving you a Boon and drawing cards every time you play it. Yes, it can fairly easily get trashed, but that doesn't save it from Thrones.

I excluded Field's gift because a double lab+peddler is obviously too good for $5, and I used the wording from Sacred Grove. Forest's gift is also pushing it strength wise.

Resolving the same Boon every time wouldn't be any slower than on card text (or a choice of the same boons every game).
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #192 on: January 01, 2018, 01:40:50 am »
+1

Quote

Tragic Hero- I don't think Tragic hero needs a buff, +3 cards and a buy isn't bad for 5.

It's a slight buff, but that's not what it's about. It's about being more interesting/varied. The current version seems like Margrave except it attacks you instead of your opponents.

Quote
Tormentor- Cute rework, I would also remove Envy for this effect. Repeating Locusts and War can be triggering.

I enjoy Bandit Fort games and Envy seems lIke an interesting spin on that. The trashing attacks hurt but you can see them coming, and this card does take a while to get going (you need to gain an imp as well as play it with an imp), as well as being a terminal.

Quote
Bard- This looks to make bard extremely strong.

Which Boons would do that? The +$1 ones run into the Silver problem I suppose.

Quote
Set aside- Do these reworks share the set-aside cards? Can Bard use druid's set aside cards for example? Also if Bard, Druid, and Tragic Hero are in play it cuts the boon deck in half.

It would be worth a reword to clarify that each set aside card corresponds to that card only. Half size Boon decks would be fine; more predictable isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #193 on: January 01, 2018, 01:57:37 am »
0

It just becomes "If the Boon/Hex is good, this card is good and if they aren't then they aren't." Which to me is much less interesting than the printed cards.

Which of the Boons would be bad on a Smithy? Will-o-wisps do risk being drawn dead, but can be very powerful when they aren't "bonus" cards, and you can use it to help activate the self trashing.

As for revised Bard, none of the effects would look too weak for a $3 card, and you get your choice of 2 of them.

Revised Tormentor is an Imp gainer first and an attack second.
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Gazbag

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #194 on: January 01, 2018, 08:22:02 pm »
+1

It just becomes "If the Boon/Hex is good, this card is good and if they aren't then they aren't." Which to me is much less interesting than the printed cards.

Which of the Boons would be bad on a Smithy? Will-o-wisps do risk being drawn dead, but can be very powerful when they aren't "bonus" cards, and you can use it to help activate the self trashing.

The thing with Tragic Hero is that the +buy is really important because it lets you buy back Heroes after they're trashed. So most of the Boons will be worse than that. Flame and Sky's gift are probably broken on this though. - especially Flame, that's like a super Masquerade that turns into a Gold when you're done trashing... Sea's gift also messes it up too.
 
Quote

Tragic Hero- I don't think Tragic hero needs a buff, +3 cards and a buy isn't bad for 5.

It's a slight buff, but that's not what it's about. It's about being more interesting/varied. The current version seems like Margrave except it attacks you instead of your opponents.

Ah yes, I think this is the problem in your thinking. If you don't want treasures you don't buy a Tragic Hero if it's likely to trash itself! If it isn't likely to trash itself it's basically just a Library with +buy that you can Mining Village style blow up on the last turn. The fact that people are thinking that Tragic Hero is weak is a telling sign that it's actually just interesting, it's fairly situational sure, but it has a very powerful effect in the right deck.

This version of Bard is also clearly too good, Sea's gift turns it into Poacher+, Field's Gift turns it into Conclave+, Forests's gift is non-terminal Woodcutter, Wind's gift is like a double Oasis thing. These are all too good on their own, and this Bard gives you an option of 2 Boons! No single Boon makes Druid stronger than an existing $2 card by itself and this should follow the same principle.

Tormentor is probably my least favourite card in Nocturne anyway, I'd rather it just stay simpler and unobtrusive like it is now or be replaced with something completely different.
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Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #195 on: January 01, 2018, 09:39:01 pm »
0

If I had a Silver for every time people badmouth treasures, I'd be a rich man.
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dz

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #196 on: January 01, 2018, 10:44:41 pm »
0

If I had a Silver for every time people badmouth treasures, I'd be a rich man.

Does Copper count to that?

And I think when people think "Treasure" they think about how it clogs your engines (i.e. Silver), even though there are Treasures that work great in engines (i.e. Fortune and Crown).
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #197 on: January 01, 2018, 11:34:14 pm »
0

Buying Silver is often bad, but free Silver? Woohoo! Like seriously if you're building an engine that's shaky enough that adding 1 Silver is bad then you should just not buy any Fate cards or build a better deck.

It's really easy to wind up with too much Silver in Nocturne, especially with Lucky Coin.

I actually like that you're forced to take it, but more Silver is not always ideal.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2018, 01:01:26 am »
0

"Gain a Treasure" certainly makes Tragic Hero significantly more interesting than if it was "Gain a Gold", but as it stands it the top half seems too weak and uninteresting to be a restricted use card. The concept as a whole is interesting though and I can see people not wanting to change it.

"Trash, then +3 cards" was fine at $4 with a discard on play ("Dungeon", a base set outtake), so  at $5 without the discard seems fine. "+4 cards but a oneshot from a standard hand" seems like a better realisation of the card's concept to me too.

Druid being 220 cards in one is just so amazing that the other Fate/Doom cards  (many of which aren't going down well) seem like they could be improved. However wasted space isn't quite as much a frustration now that we're getting expansions past the "final" explanation (which was Guilds).

I like Asper's 2 Hex torturer idea. Maybe my ideas and other Druid style cards would work better as their own cards, not related to Nocturne's.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2018, 08:59:08 am »
+3

Before Miserable was revealed, I wouldn't have been surprised by a Doom card that sets aside two Hexes at setup, letting players choose which one hits them Torturer style.

I guess I could work that into an Event or a card with Miserable banned or something.

I think it could work even with Miserable included. -4 points is fairly relevant, and card-shaped things need not always be awesome.  :)
I would be more concerned about having two indefinitely stackable attacks out (War, Locusts, Greed), or Deluded plus an indefinitely stackable attack.
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