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Author Topic: Revised versions of published cards  (Read 22667 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2014, 04:08:52 pm »
0

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.

But Scout would still not skip Coppers, Curses and other junk like Cartographer does. I think this buff would "only" make it a strong $4 card, at about Caravan's level. A probably smaller (and IMO more interesting) buff would be to draw a card only if Scout fails to reveal green cards, as was sometime suggested in an older thread.

Personally, I'd like to buff Scout by making it also skip Coppers and Curses; this seems most thematic to me. Since drawing Coppers would be too strong, I'd just add "You may discard all revealed cards costing $0." to the card text before the last sentence.
(This would make it similar to a weaker "automatic" Cartographer, removing the AP of that card.)

I don't feel like I have much AP when using Cartographer. As for Scout, I'd rather have a card that's more unique than one that's a weaker Cartographer. If Scout's main issue is straight-up power level, why not use the more simple, straightforward fix? I don't think the card needs a bunch of other clauses; they'll just make it less compelling to most players. I think the amount of complexity it currently has is ideal.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2014, 04:11:58 pm »
+2

What about a Thief that lets you put one of the gained cards on your deck, or even in your hand?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2014, 04:26:13 pm »
0

What about a Thief that lets you put one of the gained cards on your deck, or even in your hand?

I think gaining it into hand would only make Thief more swingy than it is. Right now it ranges from helping its targets (trashing Copper for free) to hurting or really hurting them. It's already quite swingy in that the benefit to you is greater precisely when it hurts your opponent(s) most. If one of the Treasures went right into your hand, that'd be even more swingy. Even if you only hit Silver, that's like an Explorer that also hurts your target. I do like how it tempts you to gain Copper, but I don't think that's worth it.

I like gaining one on top of your deck a lot better, even if it doesn't tempt you to gain Copper. It also helps to differentiate it from Noble Brigand on boards that don't have special Treasures. Cool idea!
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2014, 05:40:42 pm »
0

I like the cards in the OP.  Now I wants one.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2014, 05:47:17 pm »
0

I like the cards in the OP.  Now I wants one.

Feel free to print and play. If you sleeve your cards, it's pretty easy. You just need an image editing program like Photoshop or GIMP.
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2014, 05:51:20 pm »
+1

I don't use sleeves.  I can't scrape together enough playtime with others to justify sleeves. 
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Holger

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2014, 05:52:12 pm »
+2

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.

But Scout would still not skip Coppers, Curses and other junk like Cartographer does. I think this buff would "only" make it a strong $4 card, at about Caravan's level. A probably smaller (and IMO more interesting) buff would be to draw a card only if Scout fails to reveal green cards, as was sometime suggested in an older thread.

Personally, I'd like to buff Scout by making it also skip Coppers and Curses; this seems most thematic to me. Since drawing Coppers would be too strong, I'd just add "You may discard all revealed cards costing $0." to the card text before the last sentence.
(This would make it similar to a weaker "automatic" Cartographer, removing the AP of that card.)

I don't feel like I have much AP when using Cartographer. As for Scout, I'd rather have a card that's more unique than one that's a weaker Cartographer. If Scout's main issue is straight-up power level, why not use the more simple, straightforward fix? I don't think the card needs a bunch of other clauses; they'll just make it less compelling to most players. I think the amount of complexity it currently has is ideal.

I agree that my fix might be less compelling to casual players; but it's not just a weaker Cartographer since it still draws the revealed VP cards.
Your fix is more simple, but to me it seems less elegant to add an "unrelated" +$1; also it makes Scout a little too similar to Oasis (and other Peddlers) in my opinion. As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants (except for Noble Brigand, whose +$1 I also find rather inelegant.)

The most straightforward fix IMO would be to just increase the number of revealed cards to 5 (or even more) and/or also draw Curses. Or would this make Scout too strong in Intrigue-heavy games?

But I'd happily try your version if it succeeds in balancing Scout. Thanks for sharing!
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2014, 05:54:06 pm »
+1

What about a Thief that lets you put one of the gained cards on your deck, or even in your hand?

I think gaining it into hand would only make Thief more swingy than it is. Right now it ranges from helping its targets (trashing Copper for free) to hurting or really hurting them. It's already quite swingy in that the benefit to you is greater precisely when it hurts your opponent(s) most. If one of the Treasures went right into your hand, that'd be even more swingy. Even if you only hit Silver, that's like an Explorer that also hurts your target. I do like how it tempts you to gain Copper, but I don't think that's worth it.

I like gaining one on top of your deck a lot better, even if it doesn't tempt you to gain Copper. It also helps to differentiate it from Noble Brigand on boards that don't have special Treasures. Cool idea!

What about, "You may choose one of the trashed cards. If it is a Copper, put it in your hand. Otherwise, put it on top of your deck."?
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AJD

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2014, 06:03:09 pm »
+5

As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants

Herbalist, Merchant Guild, Bishop, Squire. Pawn, Ironworks. Bridge. Fishing Village, Lighthouse.

Abandoned Mine!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:09:45 pm by AJD »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2014, 06:13:48 pm »
+1

I agree that my fix might be less compelling to casual players; but it's not just a weaker Cartographer since it still draws the revealed VP cards.

Sure, but it's much closer to Cartographer than either Scout or my updated version (Guide).

Your fix is more simple, but to me it seems less elegant to add an "unrelated" +$1; also it makes Scout a little too similar to Oasis (and other Peddlers) in my opinion. As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants (except for Noble Brigand, whose +$1 I also find rather inelegant.)

Here is a list of Kingdom cards that can give exactly +$1 (but no more) that are not Peddler variants: Bridge, Ironworks, Pawn, Herbalist, Bishop, Noble Brigand, Squire, Merchant Guild.

EDIT: Ninja'd by AJD. Although I didn't list Lighthouse and Fishing Village because they technically give more than $1 total.

So it's uncommon, but not as rare as you might think. I used Bishop as an example earlier in this thread because its +$1 also seems unrelated to the rest of the card. I understand what you mean by the inelegance of just slapping a +$1 on there, but if Scout had originally had that +$1, I doubt most people would have been like, "What does +$1 have to do with the rest of the card?"

The most straightforward fix IMO would be to just increase the number of revealed cards to 5 (or even more) and/or also draw Curses. Or would this make Scout too strong in Intrigue-heavy games?

I think drawing Curses is a fine idea. I'm not sure it would save the card, but I don't think it's a bad thing to try. Revealing 5 cards I'm less fond of. Each card you reveal potentially adds much more AP when you put those cards back on your deck. There are 24 ways to return 4 cards to your deck. There are 120 ways to return 5 cards. Navigator gets away with it because you usually don't care about the order you're returning those cards. You're either discarding them or drawing them all in your next hand.

But I'd happily try your version if it succeeds in balancing Scout. Thanks for sharing!

No problem! I haven't been able to playtest Guide myself yet, so I don't guarantee it's a perfect fix. But the other two cards (Clairvoyant and Build) were playtested by Donald and co and shown to be fine, so I'm not too worried about balance issues there.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 06:15:11 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2014, 06:17:21 pm »
0

What about a Thief that lets you put one of the gained cards on your deck, or even in your hand?

I think gaining it into hand would only make Thief more swingy than it is. Right now it ranges from helping its targets (trashing Copper for free) to hurting or really hurting them. It's already quite swingy in that the benefit to you is greater precisely when it hurts your opponent(s) most. If one of the Treasures went right into your hand, that'd be even more swingy. Even if you only hit Silver, that's like an Explorer that also hurts your target. I do like how it tempts you to gain Copper, but I don't think that's worth it.

I like gaining one on top of your deck a lot better, even if it doesn't tempt you to gain Copper. It also helps to differentiate it from Noble Brigand on boards that don't have special Treasures. Cool idea!

What about, "You may choose one of the trashed cards. If it is a Copper, put it in your hand. Otherwise, put it on top of your deck."?

I am guessing that is too many words. Thief is already a very wordy card, although some of those words can be cut out if we use more modern Dominion phrasing.
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Holger

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2014, 07:03:50 pm »
0

I agree that my fix might be less compelling to casual players; but it's not just a weaker Cartographer since it still draws the revealed VP cards.

Sure, but it's much closer to Cartographer than either Scout or my updated version (Guide).

Your fix is more simple, but to me it seems less elegant to add an "unrelated" +$1; also it makes Scout a little too similar to Oasis (and other Peddlers) in my opinion. As far as I know, all Action cards that give exactly +$1 are Peddler variants (except for Noble Brigand, whose +$1 I also find rather inelegant.)

Here is a list of Kingdom cards that can give exactly +$1 (but no more) that are not Peddler variants: Bridge, Ironworks, Pawn, Herbalist, Bishop, Noble Brigand, Squire, Merchant Guild.

EDIT: Ninja'd by AJD. Although I didn't list Lighthouse and Fishing Village because they technically give more than $1 total.
Oops, you're totally right. I should not have made that claim from memory...

So it's uncommon, but not as rare as you might think. I used Bishop as an example earlier in this thread because its +$1 also seems unrelated to the rest of the card. I understand what you mean by the inelegance of just slapping a +$1 on there, but if Scout had originally had that +$1, I doubt most people would have been like, "What does +$1 have to do with the rest of the card?"

The most straightforward fix IMO would be to just increase the number of revealed cards to 5 (or even more) and/or also draw Curses. Or would this make Scout too strong in Intrigue-heavy games?

I think drawing Curses is a fine idea. I'm not sure it would save the card, but I don't think it's a bad thing to try. Revealing 5 cards I'm less fond of. Each card you reveal potentially adds much more AP when you put those cards back on your deck. There are 24 ways to return 4 cards to your deck. There are 120 ways to return 5 cards. Navigator gets away with it because you usually don't care about the order you're returning those cards. You're either discarding them or drawing them all in your next hand.
[...]

Usually you won't  return all the revealed cards; if I buy Scout, I'd want it to reveal at least (say) 2 VP cards on average, leaving only 3 cards to return. And the order only matters if you have more card draw this turn.
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AJD

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2014, 07:35:20 pm »
0

Ooh! Speaking of Noble Brigand, how about:

Scout
+1 Action
When you gain or play this….
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2014, 08:51:10 pm »
0

Didn't the Clairvoyant variant Donald tried still have the self-spy effect on it? Not that that's an issue, you're making it even weaker, and with the unbounded maximum draw power effect still present on the card it will still be very useful in many many kingdoms.  Just pedantic I guess.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2014, 08:54:21 pm »
0

Didn't the Clairvoyant variant Donald tried still have the self-spy effect on it? Not that that's an issue, you're making it even weaker, and with the unbounded maximum draw power effect still present on the card it will still be very useful in many many kingdoms.  Just pedantic I guess.

No, it didn't have that. I asked him once. I'll try to find the link.

EDIT: Found it.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg149066#msg149066
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 09:00:19 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2014, 05:15:25 pm »
+4

Just for fun, an attempted revision of Pirate Ship inspired by this and this. I have no idea whether it works or not.

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Warfreak2

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2014, 07:12:21 pm »
+2

Pirate Ship is already a weak card, I don't see the point in making it weaker.

edit: Oh, I see you made it a terminal Copper. Carry on.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:24:38 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2014, 07:37:50 pm »
+1

Pirate Ship is already a weak card, I don't see the point in making it weaker.

edit: Oh, I see you made it a terminal Copper. Carry on.

To me pirate ship seems plently strong, especially with villages. Near the end of the game, you can easily be getting $4 to $6 or possibly even more from a $4 cost card.

LF's version seems very similar to the way it's usually played now, except that it gives something when you're attacking and doesn't have the flexibility of doing the attack when you already have as much coin in your hand as you want.  Also, you have to wait a shuffle between playing the galley to get the retired pirate and getting the benefit of the retired pirate which is a significant drawback.  It's a neat idea, but I like the original better.

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2014, 08:11:42 pm »
+3

Pirate Ship is already a weak card, I don't see the point in making it weaker.

edit: Oh, I see you made it a terminal Copper. Carry on.

To me pirate ship seems plently strong, especially with villages. Near the end of the game, you can easily be getting $4 to $6 or possibly even more from a $4 cost card.

LF's version seems very similar to the way it's usually played now, except that it gives something when you're attacking and doesn't have the flexibility of doing the attack when you already have as much coin in your hand as you want.  Also, you have to wait a shuffle between playing the galley to get the retired pirate and getting the benefit of the retired pirate which is a significant drawback.  It's a neat idea, but I like the original better.

Yeah agreed, regular Pirate Ship is fine. It's not strong, but I never felt it needed to be. It still comes in handy sometimes.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2014, 08:18:11 pm »
0

Yeah, this change wasn't meant to be a power tweak. It's more of a, "What might Pirate Ship have looked like if Donald had decided to go the Retired Pirate route?"
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SirPeebles

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2014, 10:21:10 pm »
+4

Yeah, this change wasn't meant to be a power tweak. It's more of a, "What might Pirate Ship have looked like if Donald had decided to go the Retired Pirate route?"

Rather than choosing attack or retire, I would make Pirate Ship always attack and then follow up with the option to trash and retire.  Otherwise, the turn when you retire will be awfully weak.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2014, 11:04:37 pm »
0

Yeah, this change wasn't meant to be a power tweak. It's more of a, "What might Pirate Ship have looked like if Donald had decided to go the Retired Pirate route?"

Rather than choosing attack or retire, I would make Pirate Ship always attack and then follow up with the option to trash and retire.  Otherwise, the turn when you retire will be awfully weak.

That thought had occurred to me as well. The reason I did it this way is because it's the way it was described in the Secret History of Dark Ages.
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2014, 07:55:03 am »
+1

Yeah, this change wasn't meant to be a power tweak. It's more of a, "What might Pirate Ship have looked like if Donald had decided to go the Retired Pirate route?"

Rather than choosing attack or retire, I would make Pirate Ship always attack and then follow up with the option to trash and retire.  Otherwise, the turn when you retire will be awfully weak.

That thought had occurred to me as well. The reason I did it this way is because it's the way it was described in the Secret History of Dark Ages.

You can give +1 Action and gain to hand, or even gain and play immediately, to combine both.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2014, 08:50:05 am »
0

Yeah, this change wasn't meant to be a power tweak. It's more of a, "What might Pirate Ship have looked like if Donald had decided to go the Retired Pirate route?"

Rather than choosing attack or retire, I would make Pirate Ship always attack and then follow up with the option to trash and retire.  Otherwise, the turn when you retire will be awfully weak.

That thought had occurred to me as well. The reason I did it this way is because it's the way it was described in the Secret History of Dark Ages.

You can give +1 Action and gain to hand, or even gain and play immediately, to combine both.

Gain and play immediately takes fewer words. I'll go for that. Thanks for the idea!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2014, 09:48:38 am »
0

Does "gain and play immediately" break anything?  What if you are possessed, for instance?  Do you play it from an opponent's discard?
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