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Author Topic: Revised versions of published cards  (Read 21374 times)

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Warfreak2

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2013, 05:53:20 am »
+2

People don't have a problem with just not playing Chapel in the midgame, why is Lookout different? OK, occasionally you get a freak early play where it sees two Familiars and a Silver, but is that much worse than getting your Sea Hag Sea Hagged?
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2013, 09:40:12 am »
+2

People don't have a problem with just not playing Chapel in the midgame, why is Lookout different? OK, occasionally you get a freak early play where it sees two Familiars and a Silver, but is that much worse than getting your Sea Hag Sea Hagged?

Yes. Discard a Familiar and trash a Silver is much worse than discard a Sea Hag.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2013, 11:39:50 am »
+1

And much, much less likely. I meant, is the risk of it happening much worse? Risk is a product of the negative consequences and the likelihood of those consequences.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:41:28 am by Warfreak2 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2013, 07:16:38 pm »
+1

Lookout
Action
Cost $3
Look at top 3 deck cards, discard one, topdeck one, and either discard, topdeck, or trash the third. If you trash a card, +1 action.

(This is my casual wording. I guess you probablly wouldn't use the verb "topdeck" in an official wording, but this makes it shorter.)
Safe-trashing Lookout is for wimps!

In all seriousness, this seems like a reasonable fix, although personally I imagine that I'd be willing to trash good cards late game to avoid the "terminal Tournament" problem. That's just me.

Edit: With this card, I still think the correct move will be to not play it in the mid-late-game to late-game. It doesn't affect much, really.

Why wouldn't you play it?  The only reasons I can think of are limited actions and shuffle/cycling control, which isn't that much different from early game.  I think official Lookout is fine as is and making it safer also makes it much less interesting.
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 07:42:01 am »
0

Why wouldn't you play it?  The only reasons I can think of are limited actions and shuffle/cycling control, which isn't that much different from early game.  I think official Lookout is fine as is and making it safer also makes it much less interesting.

Moreover, weighing likelyhood and effect on the game, the worst about Lookout is how often it can miss Estates and miss Reshuffles in the early game, making the trashing extremely slow. The only good part about Lookout instead of Chapel is that, since you need to play Lookout many more times to trash down, bad trashing luck with Lookout is usually less extreme than bad trashing luck with Chapel.
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Davio

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 09:12:18 am »
+1

There is no one forcing you to play Lookout, so when you play it, you're responsible for the risk you take.

If you happen to see "Familiar, Familiar, Silver", that's not so disastrous. When you have at least 2 Familiars and your opponent has a couple, Curses will run out pretty quickly anyway, so I might trash a Familiar here if it isn't going to deal out an extra Curse.

Also, with this selection, you might have opened Lookout/Potion which isn't the best for getting early Familiars so you've already gotten a bit lucky to be able to get 2 so quickly with your less than ideal opening.

This is all just to say: Lookout doesn't need a fix for its forced trashing, if anything it'd be fun to be able put one of the "looked-at" (not revealed mind you) cards in your hand, but that bumps it to $4 at least, maybe a mediocre $5.
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2013, 09:38:28 am »
+1

This is all just to say: Lookout doesn't need a fix for its forced trashing, if anything it'd be fun to be able put one of the "looked-at" (not revealed mind you) cards in your hand, but that bumps it to $4 at least, maybe a mediocre $5.

I would say its a good $5, better than Junk Dealer for trashing your opening cards, which is not bad.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2013, 09:55:09 am »
+2

There is no one forcing you to play Lookout,

Throne Room and Golem are forcing me to play it.  :(
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Kirian

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2013, 10:09:21 am »
0

There is no one forcing you to play Lookout,

Throne Room and Golem are forcing me to play it.  :(

Buying Golem with forced trashers in your deck is begging for trouble.
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2013, 10:09:56 am »
+5

Buying Golem with forced trashers in your deck is begging for trouble.

Beggar is not a forced trasher.
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markusin

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2013, 10:20:53 am »
0

Lookout
Action
Cost $3
Look at top 3 deck cards, discard one, topdeck one, and either discard, topdeck, or trash the third. If you trash a card, +1 action.

(This is my casual wording. I guess you probablly wouldn't use the verb "topdeck" in an official wording, but this makes it shorter.)
Safe-trashing Lookout is for wimps!

In all seriousness, this seems like a reasonable fix, although personally I imagine that I'd be willing to trash good cards late game to avoid the "terminal Tournament" problem. That's just me.

Edit: With this card, I still think the correct move will be to not play it in the mid-late-game to late-game. It doesn't affect much, really.

Why wouldn't you play it?  The only reasons I can think of are limited actions and shuffle/cycling control, which isn't that much different from early game.  I think official Lookout is fine as is and making it safer also makes it much less interesting.
Limited actions can be a pretty big deal sometimes. If I'm buying Lookout, I'm usually counting on it being non-terminal. If I do have spare actions, well then okay I'll play the Lookout, but it's really a gimped Navigator if you don't trash anything.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 06:56:25 am »
+2

Also, with this selection, you might have opened Lookout/Potion which isn't the best for getting early Familiars so you've already gotten a bit lucky to be able to get 2 so quickly with your less than ideal opening.
Or Lookout/Squire. :-D
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2014, 01:13:11 am »
0

Quote
Harvest
$5 - Treasure

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put them back in the order they were in.  +$1 per differently named card revealed.

Why didn't they make Harvest as a treasure card in the first place?

LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 11:26:55 am »
0

Quote
Harvest
$5 - Treasure

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put them back in the order they were in.  +$1 per differently named card revealed.

Why didn't they make Harvest as a treasure card in the first place?

While not strictly better than Gold, that will usually be a Treasure worth at least $3 for $5.

If I were to try to fix Harvest, I'd do this:

Quote
Harvest
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one of them back and discard the rest. +$1 per differently named card revealed.
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qmech

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 12:09:17 pm »
0

Buying Golem with forced trashers in your deck is begging for trouble.

Beggar is not a forced trasher.

I'd avoid buying Golem and Beggar together either.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2014, 12:13:06 pm »
+1

Nah, Golem/Beggar is a big combo, Golems become terminal +$6 and still skip over the Coppers. The trouble is buying enough Golems, so you need an Alchemy reprint of Beggar that gains three Potions to your hand.
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Awaclus

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2014, 12:19:46 pm »
0

Nah, Golem/Beggar is a big combo, Golems become terminal +$6 and still skip over the Coppers. The trouble is buying enough Golems, so you need an Alchemy reprint of Beggar that gains three Potions to your hand.
How flavorful!

LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2014, 11:23:24 pm »
0

Quote
Harvest
$5 - Treasure

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put them back in the order they were in.  +$1 per differently named card revealed.
Why didn't they make Harvest as a treasure card in the first place?

While not strictly better than Gold, that will usually be a Treasure worth at least $3 for $5.

If I were to try to fix Harvest, I'd do this:

Quote
Harvest
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one of them back and discard the rest. +$1 per differently named card revealed.

Yeah, I guess my suggestion doesn't work.  Yours would work better, but I still think it should be a treasure card.  I guess I could just make it like this:
Quote
Harvest
$5 - Treasure

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put them back in the order they were in.  If all revealed cards are differently named then this is worth $4, otherwise this is worth $2.

Asper

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2014, 12:51:40 pm »
0

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2014, 01:02:59 pm »
+1

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2014, 12:08:54 am »
0

Suggestion for another card:
Quote
Transmute
$1p - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  If it is an…  Action card, gain a victory card costing up to $5; Treasure card, gain a transmute; Victory card, gain a Gold. | If you trashed a treasure and have a second transmute in your hand, you may reveal it.  If you do, you may gain any action card costing up to $5 or $2p instead of another transmute.
Alternatively, I might use this without the potion cost as cost $3 or $4.

Edit: Wow, I didn't realize how wordy that was at first.  Maybe this instead:
Quote
Transmute
$1p - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  If it is an…  Action card, gain a victory card costing up to $5; Treasure card, gain an action card costing up to 4 or 1p; Victory card, gain a Gold.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 01:08:09 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2014, 01:03:54 am »
+1

Transmute:
Action - $P
(Same as before)
---
When you buy this, +2 Buys

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Nic

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2014, 01:31:33 am »
+1

Suggestion for another card:
Quote
Transmute
$1p - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  If it is an…  Action card, gain a victory card costing up to $5; Treasure card, gain a transmute; Victory card, gain a Gold. | If you trashed a treasure and have a second transmute in your hand, you may reveal it.  If you do, you may gain any action card costing up to $5 or $2p instead of another transmute.
Alternatively, I might use this without the potion cost as cost $3 or $4.

Also, revealing a card in response to an event to shouldn't be part of the action. You should phrase it like Trader.
Quote
Transmute
$1p - Action - Reaction

Trash a card from your hand.  If it is an… 
Action card, gain a victory card costing up to $5;
Treasure card, gain a Transmute;
Victory card, gain a Gold.
When you would gain a Transmute, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain any action card costing up to $2p.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2014, 08:47:40 am »
0

Transmute is like Philosopher's Stone: perfectly good in a game with a few other Potion cards. Since I nearly always play with 2 sets at a time, I have no desire to change it. I think NoMoreFun's idea is cool, though. If you're going to have a card give +Buys when you buy it, a cheap Potion-cost card is a perfect fit. I don't think Transmute needs that change, but I would not complain if it happened.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:03:11 am by LastFootnote »
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Holger

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Re: Revised versions of published cards
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2014, 10:57:00 am »
0

I would probably have scout give +1 Card instead of the money. Before the revealing, though (we don't want to be too generous).

That makes it too similar to Cartographer and probably puts it on roughly the same power level as well. On a non-terminal card, every +1 Card is a huge buff. +$1 is much less drastic while still being significant.

But Scout would still not skip Coppers, Curses and other junk like Cartographer does. I think this buff would "only" make it a strong $4 card, at about Caravan's level. A probably smaller (and IMO more interesting) buff would be to draw a card only if Scout fails to reveal green cards, as was sometime suggested in an older thread.

Personally, I'd like to buff Scout by making it also skip Coppers and Curses; this seems most thematic to me. Since drawing Coppers would be too strong, I'd just add "You may discard all revealed cards costing $0." to the card text before the last sentence.
(This would make it similar to a weaker "automatic" Cartographer, removing the AP of that card.)
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