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Author Topic: Donald X on Rebuild  (Read 66568 times)

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Qvist

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2013, 10:12:51 am »
+1

Thanks for sharing Watno. Rebuild is really the only card I just dislike in the Dominion universe. While there are cards that I'm not a big fan of, I appreciate them and play with them. I was so close to house rule this card, but didn't do it because I don't like house rules in general. Now, that Donald X. himself admitted that this isn't really balanced I'm really inclined to house rule it.

1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.

2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. I guess, it may add variance if you get Rebuild collision, but I think that's a good thing here, because you maybe want to add some support, Walled Village comes to my mind here, it would be great in a straight up Rebuild game. Because one thing I dislike about Rebuild is that it is rarely a bad addition to your deck, you can even add it in your engine and play it for great effect. Then the +1 Action matters. Also it matters with strong attacks which are usually terminal. Let's assume a Sea Hag board with Rebuild. It's a no brainer to add Rebuild to your deck, no matter if you go for Sea Hag or not. But without the +1 Action, you have to think twice, especially if you want to open Sea Hag.

3.) shark_bait's suggestion though I like maybe even better. Returning to the supply instead of trashing gives any other strategy more time and potential to catch up by grabbing a couple of Duchies in the end game. Also you can't force a game end by trashing Province into Province. Rebuild though may be a totally different card, but I'm eager to try it out.

Polk5440

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 10:29:31 am »
0

I also think "return to the supply" is an idea worth exploring.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 10:37:54 am »
+1

Quote
So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway?

Get Rebuild as quickly as possible. Turn Estates into Duchies (name Duchy for Rebuild) while buying more Rebuilds (usually around 3 total). As Duchies run out, you can either pick up another Estate if you can turn it into a Duchy, or just buy a Duchy instead of a Rebuild. You need at least 4 of the Duchies, if you get 5, you've basically won the game. Now turn Duchies into Provinces (name Province) at your leisure. The Duchy split is super-important since it's usually the only thing you can Rebuild into Province, so definitely Rebuild Estate into Duchy before doing Duchy to Province. At $5 or more either buy Duchy or Rebuild, with less, buy a couple of Silvers to start, then any non-terminal sifter (Warehouse is great, Cellar is OK, things like Spice Merchant can help you clear out junk copper).
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 11:24:19 am »
+1

1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.

Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.

2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]

Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:

TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.

It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).

I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
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Qvist

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 11:34:34 am »
+1

1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.

Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.

2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]

Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:

TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.

It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).

I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.

1.) What I meant is that card strength is still the same and if you're lucky to get an early $6, that may be huge. The problem is getting to $6. If there's a strong attack, you may not even get to $6 for a while what makes Rebuild probably weak. I'm also not that surprised that it loses to BM+Smithy, but 75-25 is more than I expected. But all the wins where probably out of an early $6 after the first reshuffle. Anyway, it makes the card itself not more interesting or balanced. Changing the cost doesn't fix it. That's exectly what I meant.

2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.

sudgy

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 12:08:51 pm »
0

Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"

Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.

Yep, that happened to me.  I wanted to try Rats-Develop, but Rebuild was on the board.  I still have yet to try Rats-Develop.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2013, 12:34:32 pm »
+1

So Dominion *is* a solved game.  You just have to buy Rebuild instead of Golds and Silvers.

All kidding aside, surely we can find *something* to combat Rebuild.  Graverobber perhaps?  I put forward Saboteur at one point - I'm sure Knights might help also.  Let's get our minds together!

EDIT: Also, didn't we have this same discussion when Jack of all Trades came out?
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 12:40:41 pm »
+2

2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.

The question is, is it an interesting, fun card? Simulations won't be able to determine that. It's worth noting that terminal Rebuild was tested and nobody won a game with it.

The root problem with Rebuild is that it forces you to buy Duchies to fuel it. Spending your $5 buys on Duchies is boring.

EDIT: Let me try to explain that further. I enjoy Duchy dancing as much as the next guy; probably significantly more, actually. But spending all your non-Rebuild buys on Duchies is dull. Duke doesn't really have this issue since you need some kind of support to go Duke. You can't just buy Duchies from the get-go or you'll choke. Rebuild doesn't really have that issue. So its strength is part of the problem, but even if you make it terminal or raise its cost, the Duchy rush still remains.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:45:02 pm by LastFootnote »
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DStu

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 12:45:31 pm »
+1

So Dominion *is* a solved game.  You just have to buy Rebuild instead of Golds and Silvers.

All kidding aside, surely we can find *something* to combat Rebuild.  Graverobber perhaps?  I put forward Saboteur at one point - I'm sure Knights might help also.  Let's get our minds together!

EDIT: Also, didn't we have this same discussion when Jack of all Trades came out?

A strong engine can beat the Rebuild, I think the difference to Jack is that Rebuild also hurts engines as it destroyes the Duchies to catch up, so you need a faster engine that does not need the option for Duchies...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:01:48 pm by DStu »
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2013, 12:55:10 pm »
0

I've had some luck with Saboteur engines vs. Rebuild. A Rebuild deck has such a high density of victory cards that the Saboteur becomes much more effective, and if the duchies are gone hitting Provinces is devastating. Optimal play probably requires you to through in your own Rebuild most of the time, but it's interesting that one of the weakest cards in the game is a decent counter to one of the strongest.
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jaybeez

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2013, 01:45:36 pm »
0

So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
It depends on a few things, like whether you're playing a mirror or not, whether there are Colonies and/or Shelters, whether there's any alt-VP in the kingdom, what split you get, etc. etc. etc.  But, painting with extremely broad strokes, I would say that in general you want to:
- open Silver/Silver or Silver/terminal Silver.  Stuff like Silver/cycler can be really good too (Silver/Warehouse is particularly nice for Rebuild, IMO), there's some room for creativity
- get 2 Rebuilds ASAP.  Possibly a third depending on what your opponent's doing
- focus on Rebuilding Estates into Duchies.  And once you have enough Rebuilds, usually you want to buy Duchy at $5-7.  If there's no alt-VP, Duchy is the key card in a Rebuild mirror because if you can win the Duchy split you can cut off your opponent's route to Provinces, because a Rebuild deck will rarely hit $8.
- assuming no alt-VP, if you're in the lead and the Duchies are gone, just focus on taking points off the board.  If you have no Estates left in your deck then it doesn't matter what you name when you play Rebuild.  But if you do, just name Estate so that your Rebuilds will either hit Duchies or Provinces.
- if you're behind in that same situation... pray.  Because you're probably not going to win.

EDIT: Ninja'd by BadAssMutha, more or less.  I disagree with his advice about buying Estates though, I think you usually don't want to do that.

Also:
I've had some luck with Saboteur engines vs. Rebuild. A Rebuild deck has such a high density of victory cards that the Saboteur becomes much more effective, and if the duchies are gone hitting Provinces is devastating. Optimal play probably requires you to through in your own Rebuild most of the time, but it's interesting that one of the weakest cards in the game is a decent counter to one of the strongest.
But you have to have a way to come back, so I would think alt-VP would need to be in the kingdom for this to work, right?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:51:37 pm by jaybeez »
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sudgy

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2013, 02:24:00 pm »
+1

I know I one time whooped AdamH with Rebuild when he went Workshop/Gardens, in case that helps.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

BadAssMutha

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2013, 02:57:12 pm »
0

Quote
Ninja'd by BadAssMutha, more or less.  I disagree with his advice about buying Estates though, I think you usually don't want to do that.

You're probably right that it's usually the case that you don't need/want another Estate. It can be something worth keeping an eye on, though - I know I looked foolish the first few times I tried a Rebuild deck, and tried to go Estate -> Duchy by naming Duchy, but didn't have anymore Estates to Rebuild. If your deck is out of Estates with at least 3 Duchies left in the pile, Estate may be the way to go with <$5. You'll probably get a chance to Rebuild it, and it could win you the Duchy split. However, if the Estate doesn't get Rebuilt, it becomes a liability. It can cause you to waste Rebuild plays either by naming Estate and Rebuilding Province -> Province, or by naming Province and having to Rebuild Estate -> Estate (which is even more of a waste).
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2013, 04:35:23 pm »
+1

1.) What I meant is that card strength is still the same and if you're lucky to get an early $6, that may be huge. The problem is getting to $6. If there's a strong attack, you may not even get to $6 for a while what makes Rebuild probably weak. I'm also not that surprised that it loses to BM+Smithy, but 75-25 is more than I expected. But all the wins where probably out of an early $6 after the first reshuffle. Anyway, it makes the card itself not more interesting or balanced. Changing the cost doesn't fix it. That's exectly what I meant.

Thanks for the clarification, now I see what you mean. I haven't looked into the simulation details of getting an early $6, but I think I would usually prefer Gold on an early $6 to a $6 Rebuild anyway: Rebuild is only really good when you can get several, since you have to "clean up" the Estates first (which only nets you 2 VP instead of 3 VP) and since you have to rush to the Provinces against engines; and one Rebuild doesn't help you to get another since it actually weakens your economy, unlike Gold. But I agree that a price change doesn't make the card any more interesting.


2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.

Yes, I'd also try this as a fix. I think this change might even make it a bit weak, since e.g. BM+Smithy is not competitive on most boards, and since Rebuild becomes weaker in engines.

The question is, is it an interesting, fun card? Simulations won't be able to determine that. It's worth noting that terminal Rebuild was tested and nobody won a game with it.

The root problem with Rebuild is that it forces you to buy Duchies to fuel it. Spending your $5 buys on Duchies is boring.

EDIT: Let me try to explain that further. I enjoy Duchy dancing as much as the next guy; probably significantly more, actually. But spending all your non-Rebuild buys on Duchies is dull. Duke doesn't really have this issue since you need some kind of support to go Duke. You can't just buy Duchies from the get-go or you'll choke. Rebuild doesn't really have that issue. So its strength is part of the problem, but even if you make it terminal or raise its cost, the Duchy rush still remains.

You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).
I'd expect the "no-fun" TerminalRebuild-Duchy rush to lose against most engines based on the comparison to BM-Smithy. But you could add one or two TerminalRebuilds to many decks as a mid-game addition like Harem or Great Hall, or try to build a Rebuild semi-engine with Villages or Throne Rooms, which seems potentially much more fun to me. But it's true that you'd have to playtest it to determine if the fix is worth it - can someone convince Goko to implement it? ;)
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2013, 04:38:02 pm »
0

You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).

Bear in mind that Rebuild is a Dark Ages card, so you have to take into account the fairly likely scenario that you have no starting Estates to upgrade.

Even in an Estate game, if you take the route of waiting until mid to late game to start rebuilding, there may not be enough Duchies left to rebuild your Estates into.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:39:14 pm by LastFootnote »
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Polk5440

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2013, 04:45:05 pm »
+7

I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?

That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.

What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2013, 04:46:35 pm »
0

Quote
So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway?

Get Rebuild as quickly as possible. Turn Estates into Duchies (name Duchy for Rebuild) while buying more Rebuilds (usually around 3 total). As Duchies run out, you can either pick up another Estate if you can turn it into a Duchy, or just buy a Duchy instead of a Rebuild. You need at least 4 of the Duchies, if you get 5, you've basically won the game. Now turn Duchies into Provinces (name Province) at your leisure. The Duchy split is super-important since it's usually the only thing you can Rebuild into Province, so definitely Rebuild Estate into Duchy before doing Duchy to Province. At $5 or more either buy Duchy or Rebuild, with less, buy a couple of Silvers to start, then any non-terminal sifter (Warehouse is great, Cellar is OK, things like Spice Merchant can help you clear out junk copper).

Clarification: This is how to play a Rebuild mirror.  In a non-mirror, you usually want to go for Provinces as fast as you can (your first Estate to Duchy to Province, then your next Estate, etc., instead of all Estates into Duchies, and then all Duchies into Provinces).  The reason that Rebuild is as strong as it is is because of threat that the non-mirror imposes of being able to blaze through the Province pile, reducing the total number of VP on the board before the opponent can do anything to catch up.  Since a (non-cursing, no trashing attack) game of Dominion is won when you have half the points on the board, Rebuild in a non-mirror grabs you a few big points fast and trashes the rest of the victory cards so that you can quickly hit half the total points remaining.

This is also why I really like shark_bait's suggestion (I think someone else had suggested it in another thread before as well?) of returning the victory cards to the piles instead of trashing them; it means that there is still 86 VP total no matter how fast you get to the Provinces.  Rebuild mirrors might still play out roughly the same, but it's okay because the non-mirror is no longer such a dangerous situation for the non-Rebuild player.  The Rebuild player will still grab Provinces quickly, but then they need to find a way to end the game.  It would be worth playtesting, I could see it still being a really strong card, but I think it would be a lot more reasonable with that change.

Edit: pst made the same suggestion in this thread:
I wonder what would happen if Rebuild didn't trash cards, but instead returned them to the supply. I think that would give the intended (?) effect without the rush.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:55:36 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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blueblimp

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2013, 04:55:24 pm »
0

Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher.  Has that option been discussed before?
This would also give a funny interaction with Overgrown Estate, which as the only victory card that can't be returned to the supply (puzzle: find the edge case), would become an endless Estate generator. With the modified Rebuild, that might actually be useful, because in a mirror the Duchy pile won't deplete like it does now (on account of returning Duchies instead of trashing them), so having lots of Estates to grow up to Provinces would actually be useful.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2013, 04:58:54 pm »
0

Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher.  Has that option been discussed before?
This would also give a funny interaction with Overgrown Estate, which as the only victory card that can't be returned to the supply (puzzle: find the edge case), would become an endless Estate generator. With the modified Rebuild, that might actually be useful, because in a mirror the Duchy pile won't deplete like it does now (on account of returning Duchies instead of trashing them), so having lots of Estates to grow up to Provinces would actually be useful.

Edge case: Black Market
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blueblimp

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2013, 05:00:07 pm »
+1

So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
ragingduckd's article is the canonical resource.
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Holger

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2013, 05:42:01 pm »
+1

You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).

Bear in mind that Rebuild is a Dark Ages card, so you have to take into account the fairly likely scenario that you have no starting Estates to upgrade.

Okay, I was assuming all-random kingdoms, which usually have starting Estates. But even with Shelters you can still get 3 Rebuild uses out of the one Overgrown Estate.

Even in an Estate game, if you take the route of waiting until mid to late game to start rebuilding, there may not be enough Duchies left to rebuild your Estates into.

Occasionally, yes; so it's not an automatic buy. But usually Duchies don't run out long before the game ends if the Duchy rush is not viable, I think.


I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?

That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.

What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
That's an interesting idea. I think 3P should be enough, since 4P is even harder to get than $6. And the potion is useless for buying Duchies.
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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2013, 07:55:16 pm »
+1

I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?

That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.

What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
That's an interesting idea. I think 3P should be enough, since 4P is even harder to get than $6. And the potion is useless for buying Duchies.

I agree with this being an interesting possibility. 4P seems far too weak - it's harder to reach than $6, and we already know Rebuild probably isn't so strong at $6. I'm tempted to say that actually 2P might be okay. (One of) The thing that makes Rebuild so strong is that you can grab a critical mass of them quickly. Just putting P in the cost is enough to limit that.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

PSGarak

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2013, 09:12:15 pm »
+6

Guys, I think we're getting tunnel-vision around the idea of nerfing the card. Look at Donald's quote: He's saying an OP card is OK, as long as it's interesting. Fixing Rebuild could involve making it less powerful, but it could also involve making it more interesting. You'll notice from the histories that he tends to redesign rather than rebalance. Not to put Donald's opinions up on a pedestal, but I think that tendency of his is a pretty big part of why Dominion is fun.

Rebuild, by rights, should be an interesting cards, but it was solved. Tinkering with cost or action may address the undue influence it has on the game, but it doesn't impact that the card itself is solved. I think the proper way to fix Rebuild is to make it less trivial to play it correctly.

LastFootnote's point is a good one: As long as all your $5-hands have to go to Duchies and not $5-actions, your deck will be boring. Making Rebuild itself cost $6 or $3P doesn't address this problem. I'm not sure that return-to-supply fixes this either.

I think the only way to fix this issue is to let Rebuild "skip" Duchy somehow in the progression from Estate to Province. Like, I dunno, by using some sort of token or mat to less you "store up" plays of Rebuild, and then two plays of Rebuild could take one Estate directly to a Province. Or something.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2013, 12:52:51 am »
0

Fixing Rebuild could involve making it less powerful, but it could also involve making it more interesting. You'll notice from the histories that he tends to redesign rather than rebalance.

Rebuild, by rights, should be an interesting cards, but it was solved. Tinkering with cost or action may address the undue influence it has on the game, but it doesn't impact that the card itself is solved. I think the proper way to fix Rebuild is to make it less trivial to play it correctly.

LastFootnote's point is a good one: As long as all your $5-hands have to go to Duchies and not $5-actions, your deck will be boring. Making Rebuild itself cost $6 or $3P doesn't address this problem. I'm not sure that return-to-supply fixes this either.

I think the only way to fix this issue is to let Rebuild "skip" Duchy somehow in the progression from Estate to Province. Like, I dunno, by using some sort of token or mat to less you "store up" plays of Rebuild, and then two plays of Rebuild could take one Estate directly to a Province. Or something.
Interesting idea.  Here's an easy way you could avoid using a token or mat:

Rebuild  cost $6  action  (It probably should still cost 6 with this change...)
+1 action
Choose one:
-Trash a victory card and gain an action or treasure costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
- or Trash an action or treasure and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.

Or... One of Rebuild's biggest strengths is that it lets you look through your deck for a card to rebuild.  You could simply remove that ability and have to have something in your hand to rebuild.  That's more nerfing the card than making it more interesting though.

Re: potion costs: To me potions costs are more thematic than just making it less easily accessable.  Familiars, golems, etc are magical things, so you need something more than ordinary treasure to get them.  I don't think it would fit with rebuild.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 12:59:31 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Donald X on Rebuild
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2013, 02:39:35 am »
0

So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?

Usually that is how you play it. You can also sneak in a terminal in there since Rebuild is no terminal, but Sea Hag or whatever tends to not do much good since it doesn't provide $
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