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[AJD]

I maintain that, for all its flaws, Harvest is the "fixed" Adventurer. It has you discard cards from the top of your deck to produce coin, but it only costs $5 and doesn't require you to have treasure in your deck, just variety.

But Adventurer changes with special Treasure cards, while Harvest does not. I don't see them as being similar at all.

They're both part of a larger family of terminal variable (potentially large, but unreliable) money generators. Counting House is another one of the same family. Interestingly, most of them seem to be pretty weak. (What are the others—Pirate Ship? Trade Route?)

[markusin]

I maintain that, for all its flaws, Harvest is the "fixed" Adventurer. It has you discard cards from the top of your deck to produce coin, but it only costs $5 and doesn't require you to have treasure in your deck, just variety.

But Adventurer changes with special Treasure cards, while Harvest does not. I don't see them as being similar at all.

They're both part of a larger family of terminal variable (potentially large, but unreliable) money generators. Counting House is another one of the same family. Interestingly, most of them seem to be pretty weak. (What are the others—Pirate Ship? Trade Route?)

I Agree with Counting House fitting in that family. Pirate Ship and Trade Route not so much because the coin they provide are dependent on conscious actions taken by the players (attacking with Pirate Ship, and buying VP for Trade Route) rather than pure shuffle luck.

[AJD]

In general, Donald tried to make the Potion-cost cards such that you'd be willing to buy a Potion even if there were no other Potion-cost cards on the board. He wasn't entirely successful with Transmute or Philosopher's Stone.

Isn't Philosopher's Stone weaker with a lot of other Potion-cost cards? Potion-cost cards are mostly non-terminal engine cards which put a lot of cards in your hand and play area, which is bad for Philosopher's Stone.

[Count Grishnakh]

In general, Donald tried to make the Potion-cost cards such that you'd be willing to buy a Potion even if there were no other Potion-cost cards on the board. He wasn't entirely successful with Transmute or Philosopher's Stone.

Isn't Philosopher's Stone weaker with a lot of other Potion-cost cards? Potion-cost cards are mostly non-terminal engine cards which put a lot of cards in your hand and play area, which is bad for Philosopher's Stone.

Yeah what you say is true. Phil stone's value depends on the board more than anything else. Like you say its probably not worth buying if alchemist or scrying pool is out but it's also not worth buying a potion for if your deck isn't going to get bloated, whether by attacks or by your own design.

[Awaclus]

In general, Donald tried to make the Potion-cost cards such that you'd be willing to buy a Potion even if there were no other Potion-cost cards on the board. He wasn't entirely successful with Transmute or Philosopher's Stone.

Isn't Philosopher's Stone weaker with a lot of other Potion-cost cards? Potion-cost cards are mostly non-terminal engine cards which put a lot of cards in your hand and play area, which is bad for Philosopher's Stone.

Not to mention, why on earth would you buy a Philosopher's Stone if you have $3P and there's another potion cost card you could be getting?

Though, it works pretty well with Possession; Possession increases your deck size faster, and if you're planning to get a Possession, a hand of $4P isn't entirely useless if there's a Philosopher's Stone on the board. On the other hand, Possession also works pretty well with an engine deck that draws itself, so it's not optimal, but maybe sometimes you're playing some weird deck against a megaturn deck and you just absolutely need Possession no matter what.

[SCSN]

In general, Donald tried to make the Potion-cost cards such that you'd be willing to buy a Potion even if there were no other Potion-cost cards on the board. He wasn't entirely successful with Transmute or Philosopher's Stone.

Isn't Philosopher's Stone weaker with a lot of other Potion-cost cards? Potion-cost cards are mostly non-terminal engine cards which put a lot of cards in your hand and play area, which is bad for Philosopher's Stone.

Not to mention, why on earth would you buy a Philosopher's Stone if you have $3P and there's another potion cost card you could be getting?

Though, it works pretty well with Possession; Possession increases your deck size faster, and if you're planning to get a Possession, a hand of $4P isn't entirely useless if there's a Philosopher's Stone on the board. On the other hand, Possession also works pretty well with an engine deck that draws itself, so it's not optimal, but maybe sometimes you're playing some weird deck against a megaturn deck and you just absolutely need Possession no matter what.

In a game I played earlier today, on T10 I bought a PS over a Familiar even though there were still 5 Curses left. This is also one of the rare boards where PS is actually stronger because of the other potion cost cards. And, perhaps strangest of all, I ended up winning pretty convincingly from P2 against a Mountebank open...

[LastFootnote]

In general, Donald tried to make the Potion-cost cards such that you'd be willing to buy a Potion even if there were no other Potion-cost cards on the board. He wasn't entirely successful with Transmute or Philosopher's Stone.

Isn't Philosopher's Stone weaker with a lot of other Potion-cost cards? Potion-cost cards are mostly non-terminal engine cards which put a lot of cards in your hand and play area, which is bad for Philosopher's Stone.

You'd think so, but in practice it doesn't work out that way. Yeah, you don't want one in an Alchemist or Scrying Pool deck, but that's about it. It's great with Herbalist and University and OK with Golem. It's excellent against Familiar. It's even good with Apothecary, since they both benefit from extra Coppers and in practice they don't really get in each other's way.

So when there's no good trashing on an Alchemy-heavy board, you often want your later Potion buys to be Philosopher's Stones rather than more Universities, Golems, etc.

[ehunt]

the list of cards that combo with watchtower... is a long list. Probably longer than any other card.

Someone, I can't remember who, said that if you pick a kingdom card at random, probably watchtower comboes with it or counters it. It's an exaggeration, but not too much.

[Voltaire]

Harvest. No one uses it. 

I have had two killer games with Harvest lately. One was a 3-player game IRL. It felt great to win using it.

And also wrong. So very wrong.

[liopoil]

Cards that combo with watchtower/watchtower counters:

disclaimer: many of these cards belong in multiple categories. There are also cards which you could make a case that they should be in this list. There are probably cards on this list that don't really combo with watchtower. In all cases, I made my best guess as to if they should be included/where they should be put. But, I'm not really all that good at dominion, so I am likely wrong several times.

Cards are in order of set. I may not have gone chronologically though, I just went through the card lists on the main page. I believe I looked at every single card.

Cards that combo because of draw-to-6

cellar
moneylender
festival
baron
minion
native village
fishing village
warehouse
Island
salvager
outpost
vault
forge
transmute
university
hamlet
horse traders
remake
oasis
noble brigand
inn
storeroom
mystic
ruined village (!)
plaza
black market

TOTAL CARDS: 26

Cards that combo because of on-trash ability:

remodel
embargo
trade route
mint
goons
hoard
cache
squire
market square
death cart
feodum
fortress
bandit camp
count
hunting grounds
doctor
masterpiece
merchant guild

TOTAL: 18

Cards that combo because of top-deck ability:

workshop
wishing well
ironworks
upgrade
smugglers
treasure map
expand
develop
trader
haggler
border village
farmland
hermit
urchin/mercenary
procession
rats
catacombs
graverobber
altar
stonemason
butcher
governor

TOTAL: 22

Cards that are countered by watchtower:

bureaucrat
militia
witch
swindler
torturer
ambassador
cutpurse
sea hag
ghost ship
mountebank
familiar
young witch
jester
ill-gotten gains
margrave
marauder
cultist
taxman
soothsayer
followers

TOTAL: 20

TOTAL OF TOTALS: 86

winner of the bit-of-everything contest: soothsayer. countered by watchtower, topdeck gold w/watchtower, trash curse w/watchtower, and decreases handsize for playing watchtower. I would not have included it for any one of those alone (trashing curse doesn't let you draw a card, topdecking gold isn't amazing, and decreasing handsize by 1 terminally isn't much either), but all together makes it easily worth of inclusion. Honorable mentions: Stonemason (not countered!), and Jester (never used for topdeck and trash in same action)

[liopoil]

anyway, 86 cards combo with watchtower. That's over 2/5 of all the cards.

My favorite was ruined village. It's not useless!!!

[markusin]

I can't believe you didn't include Forager for draw up to 6.

[liopoil]

I can't believe you didn't include Forager for draw up to 6.

hmmm, indeed, I missed that. I was just thinking about the treasures in the trash bit. Forager is better for decreasing handsize than many others on that list. -2 non-terminally.

[Awaclus]

winner of the bit-of-everything contest: soothsayer. countered by watchtower, topdeck gold w/watchtower, trash curse w/watchtower, and decreases handsize for playing watchtower. I would not have included it for any one of those alone (trashing curse doesn't let you draw a card, topdecking gold isn't amazing, and decreasing handsize by 1 terminally isn't much either), but all together makes it easily worth of inclusion. Honorable mentions: Stonemason (not countered!), and Jester (never used for topdeck and trash in same action)

Additionally, SS increases your opponent's handsize, which is antisynergy with his Watchtower.

[liopoil]

winner of the bit-of-everything contest: soothsayer. countered by watchtower, topdeck gold w/watchtower, trash curse w/watchtower, and decreases handsize for playing watchtower. I would not have included it for any one of those alone (trashing curse doesn't let you draw a card, topdecking gold isn't amazing, and decreasing handsize by 1 terminally isn't much either), but all together makes it easily worth of inclusion. Honorable mentions: Stonemason (not countered!), and Jester (never used for topdeck and trash in same action)

Additionally, SS increases your opponent's handsize, which is antisynergy with his Watchtower.

well, if he has a watchtower in hand than his handsize likely won't be increasing because he will trash the curse. only works if he plays a cantrip and draws his watchtower or something.

[rrwoods]

I don't understand Remodel or Bandit Camp being in the trash combo list. Remodel because you can trash the incoming card if you want? Seems close to irrelevant... Bandit camp because you can trash the incoming spoils??

[blueblimp]

I don't understand Remodel or Bandit Camp being in the trash combo list. Remodel because you can trash the incoming card if you want? Seems close to irrelevant... Bandit camp because you can trash the incoming spoils??

Imagine Remodel on Copper or Curse. Trashing the outcome is often good.

[blueblimp]

winner of the bit-of-everything contest: soothsayer. countered by watchtower, topdeck gold w/watchtower, trash curse w/watchtower, and decreases handsize for playing watchtower. I would not have included it for any one of those alone (trashing curse doesn't let you draw a card, topdecking gold isn't amazing, and decreasing handsize by 1 terminally isn't much either), but all together makes it easily worth of inclusion. Honorable mentions: Stonemason (not countered!), and Jester (never used for topdeck and trash in same action)

Additionally, SS increases your opponent's handsize, which is antisynergy with his Watchtower.

well, if he has a watchtower in hand than his handsize likely won't be increasing because he will trash the curse. only works if he plays a cantrip and draws his watchtower or something.

The curse is still gained before Watchtower trashes it, so hand size will increase regardless.

[liopoil]

I don't understand Remodel or Bandit Camp being in the trash combo list. Remodel because you can trash the incoming card if you want? Seems close to irrelevant... Bandit camp because you can trash the incoming spoils??

whoops, those should both be on the top-of-deck list... even still they're a bit of a stretch. I included most cards that let you gain something in the middle of your turn. Remodel is only included because it also does a bit of handsize reduction if you have the extra actions. In the case of bandit camp there is a very good chance you'll be able to draw the topdecked spoils.

Keep pointing out mistakes, I'll do one big edit eventually.

winner of the bit-of-everything contest: soothsayer. countered by watchtower, topdeck gold w/watchtower, trash curse w/watchtower, and decreases handsize for playing watchtower. I would not have included it for any one of those alone (trashing curse doesn't let you draw a card, topdecking gold isn't amazing, and decreasing handsize by 1 terminally isn't much either), but all together makes it easily worth of inclusion. Honorable mentions: Stonemason (not countered!), and Jester (never used for topdeck and trash in same action)

Additionally, SS increases your opponent's handsize, which is antisynergy with his Watchtower.

well, if he has a watchtower in hand than his handsize likely won't be increasing because he will trash the curse. only works if he plays a cantrip and draws his watchtower or something.

The curse is still gained before Watchtower trashes it, so hand size will increase regardless.

oh right, I remember that discussion now.

I don't understand Remodel or Bandit Camp being in the trash combo list. Remodel because you can trash the incoming card if you want? Seems close to irrelevant... Bandit camp because you can trash the incoming spoils??

Imagine Remodel on Copper or Curse. Trashing the outcome is often good.

this too, but it still fits better in topdecking I think.

[blueblimp]

Urchin/mercenary missing from counters.
Most trashers plays nice with draw-up-to. E.g. Transmute, Develop, Trade Route, Steward...
The top deck ability is useless with Develop because the cards are already top decked. However the trash ability can be good in principle.

[KingZog3]

Treasure Map doesn't benefit form the top-deck ability either.

[EvanC]

Treasure Map doesn't benefit form the top-deck ability either.

It could -

Turn 1: buy Treasure map

Turn 2: buy Watchtower

Turn 3: Draw 4 copper and watchtower, buy treasure map, top deck with watchtower

Turn 4: most likely draw double treasure map


Not saying this is common, or a good idea, but if you know the treasure map is down (courtyarded etc) it can be used to hit two.

[florrat]

Treasure Map doesn't benefit form the top-deck ability either.

If you have $8 and 2 buys, topdecking might be pretty useful. Or when having 2 Ironworks in hand. Or any of the other countless possibilities when you can gain 2 TMs in a turn (like the example in the opening post).

A Watchtower is not useful when you have connected two TMs, but at least slightly useful to connect two TMs

[Awaclus]

Treasure Map doesn't benefit form the top-deck ability either.

If you have $8 and 2 buys, topdecking might be pretty useful. Or when having 2 Ironworks in hand. Or any of the other countless possibilities when you can gain 2 TMs in a turn (like the example in the opening post).

A Watchtower is not useful when you have connected two TMs, but at least slightly useful to connect two TMs

Or when you know the TM you already bought will be in your next 4 cards.

[loppo]

just add talisman, and you are there:

turn 1: buy watchtower
turn 2: buy talisman
turn 3: play talisman + CCC buy treasure map, gain treasure map
            topdeck both with watchtower
turn 4: profit