Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Count Grishnakh]

I've played quite a few games on GOKO and my nomination for most underused card is....

1. WATCHTOWER.. bar none..

For only $3, this swiss army knife of a card has so many applications, it's easy to overlook how useful this card is

-Draw to 6 (Almost as good as library)
-Top decking is more useful than people think it is, and an oft overlooked mechanic
-Very useful in engines that give a lot of actions but slowly deplete your hand size.
-It makes purely defensive strategies far more viable than people think
-COMPLETELY overlooked synergy with cards such as Marauder, soothsayer, bandit camp, iron works, University (you can top deck the spoils / gold / action card)
-Even if you don't have an extra action, you can keep it and it can act as a royal seal.


Here's the best example I can give of how Watchtower will help you in ways you wouldn't even expect:

-HAND:
-Two Universities
-One council room
-watchtower

I used the two universities two gain and top deck TWO treasure maps. Then I used the watchtower to bring them into my hand. Combined them, top decked the four gold. Played council room to bring the gold into my hand.

At that point my opponent quit.

[florrat]

Yes, Watchtower is a good card, and can do a lot of things. I think I'm (at least slightly) underusing it.

However, I think you are overselling Watchtower a bit in your post.
-I strongly disagree that draw to 6 is almost as good as library. That is like saying that the +2 Cards from Moat is just as good as Journeyman. In both cases the difference is 1 Card and some filtering.
-The topdecking is really nice, but if the only thing you did with your Watchtower was topdecking the single card you bought that turn, then you haven't got much use from it. In that scenario, usually I'd want a Copper over a Watchtower. If you buy multiple cards which you want in your hand, then using a Watchtower to set up your next turn is decent (and sometimes very good).
The topdecking synergizes with gainers, but with terminal gainers (and most gainers are terminal), you usually end up not playing your Watchtower, in which case it's pretty meh.
-The trash on-gain ability of Watchtower is good, but without decent trashing you usually can't ignore the junkers completely. Watchtower can't get rid of the junk which slipped past and is in your deck.

Your example is indeed really nice (but it is pretty specific).

[werothegreat]

How can you mention Watchtower and not Goons in the same sentence?

[Count Grishnakh]

However, I think you are overselling Watchtower a bit in your post.

-I strongly disagree that draw to 6 is almost as good as library. That is like saying that the +2 Cards from Moat is just as good as Journeyman. In both cases the difference is 1 Card and some filtering.

Duly noted. It's about 60% as good as library for 60% of the cost plus it has other functions. If you have a good engine you won't need the filtering so much


-The topdecking is really nice, but if the only thing you did with your Watchtower was topdecking the single card you bought that turn, then you haven't got much use from it.

True. This is why I call it the swiss army knife of cards. It may not be worthwhile to buy it for any one function alone, but for two or more of its applications. Try experimenting with it more often, you might find that its full array of functions can be tapped into more often than you would expect.

The topdecking synergizes with gainers, but with terminal gainers (and most gainers are terminal), you usually end up not playing your Watchtower, in which case it's pretty meh.

This all depends on how many cards you can acquire per turn, and which cards are on the table. If you can acquire two or more cards per turn (either through extra buys, or iron works) the top decking becomes much more of an asset (think top decking an ironmonger and a throne room with 4$ and an iron works.. If you can top deck these you won't lament the fact that your watchtower was left unplayed!)

-The trash on-gain ability of Watchtower is good, but without decent trashing you usually can't ignore the junkers completely. Watchtower can't get rid of the junk which slipped past and is in your deck.

I definitely wouldn't try to use watchtowers to substitute for junkers.. If a curser / marauder / cultist is out and I decide to play defensively I would use watchtower and a junker as a two pronged approach.. as I find watchtowers synergize well with junkers, as keeping your deck clean can increase the frequency with which those junkers can be played

[Count Grishnakh]

How can you mention Watchtower and not Goons in the same sentence?

That's definitely an oversight on my part. Thanks for catching that. Do you disagree or agree with OP though? What do you feel is the most under-rated / under-utilized card?

[KingZog3]

Harvest. No one uses it. 

[werothegreat]

How can you mention Watchtower and not Goons in the same sentence?

That's definitely an oversight on my part. Thanks for catching that. Do you disagree or agree with OP though? What do you feel is the most under-rated / under-utilized card?

Typically anything that's solid, getting the job done, but nothing really eye-catching.  Cards that everyone forgets about, like Explorer or Merchant Ship.  I also personally have a fondness for Pirate Ship, but I can understand the arguments for it being a weak card.

[BadAssMutha]

Harvest. No one uses it.

I think Harvest utilization is low, but I also think that's where it should be. It's not a good $5 early on, and by the time it's making you good money you should probably just buy a gold instead. When it's a terminal $1 or $2, it's terrible. Even as a terminal gold, it's pretty middling. It's tough to rely on it for +$4, and when it does show up, you wish you had a +buy with it.

As for my opinion on most underused cards, I might go with Jack of All Trades (for myself at least). I know it's highly regarded, but still I consistently find it to be a surprisingly fast strategy on a lot of boards, and often regret passing it up.

[Aidan Millow]

Most of the people I play rate watchtower where I feel it should be rated (rather highly). My baby for an underutilised card is Scout.

*Pause for Scout jokes*

I know it's a terrible card but there are games where both players decks get bogged down with green and I'm almost certain that a scout to filter some out for a turn would be better than a silver or other alternatives but people don't buy it just because it's scout.

[sudgy]

Scout.

PPE: I can't believe I got ninja'd with this.

[Count Grishnakh]

Most of the people I play rate watchtower where I feel it should be rated (rather highly). My baby for an underutilised card is Scout.

*Pause for Scout jokes*

I know it's a terrible card but there are games where both players decks get bogged down with green and I'm almost certain that a scout to filter some out for a turn would be better than a silver or other alternatives but people don't buy it just because it's scout.

I've noticed on Goko watchtower gets ignored a lot more than it should

[WanderingWinder]

Re: Watchtower: depends on who you're playing with. People here know all about the gainers synergy, particularly university (which is a very tasty combo). Is it underrated? Surely, by some people. The question is what group of people you're talking about.
I would say the defensive powers are probably a little bit underrated - you can chain watchtowers to keep yourself fairly well defended in some circumstances, but in general, the card isn't really.

60% of the cost of library is not something you want to use. Costs don't scale linearly, really almost at all. You at least have to note that they each cost 1 buy/gain apiece, but that the $$ cost is more about a limitation on when you can get them than anything else.


One thing to note about draw-to-x cards in general is that they are not all that great for engine building. (Ducks). Yes, you can make an engine with them, but the thing is that it's harder to chain them to get full benefit. If I have a 5 card hand, Watchtower draws me 2 cards. But if I've already played one, then I am going to need to play some other actions to get any draw power from the second. This sometimes means disappearing villages (or those rare non-draw non-terminals like lighthouse), but very often it means playing some non-draw terminals. And then to not draw things dead, you basically need to have more villages than you otherwise would, plus you have less choice over the priority you play your other cards in.

This is actually a pretty significant drawback.

[markusin]

Interesting. I didn't notice Watchtower being under-utilized. If anything, I imagine it to be a card new players overrate. I know I did. It's one of those cards that can provide support for a lot of strategies, but on its own it can drag you down. The Watchtower that you don't get to play can top-deck a card you get, but it could have been a silver that lets you hit $5 or $6. Still, it has so many uses.

While we're talking about under-rated/under-utilized cards...

Silk Road

I feel that new players tend to really underestimate this card. That's understandable, as it doesn't seem so impressive when you first read its text. It's similar to Gardens in games where it's the only kingdom VP card, but gets boosted by a larger variety of decks. That Provinces boost these up is a big point in its favour. Basically, any deck with longevity can take advantage of Silk Roads being in the kingdom.

When there is just one other VP card in the kingdom though, Silk Road will almost certainly come into play. It gives a huge boost to already viable sources of alt-VP. Suddenly Trader, Explorer, and Bureaucrat start looking very attractive. At the same time, it's just a load to players who weren't prepared to boost them up but try to deny their green opponent the VP. It's almost like denying Dukes when your opponent got 6 of the 8 Duchies. You're just helping the game reach a 3-pile ending.

[liopoil]

couple in-general questions about watchtower:

- Which is easier: building an engine where the main draw is watchtower, or when it's library?

- Which is better on average, watchtower's topdecking on-gain or trashing on-gain?

My guess would be that it's easier with watchtower because it's cheaper and has other bonuses... if you're building a draw-to-X engine then when you play watchtower/library you hope to only have 1 or 2 cards in hand left. The difference between +5 cards and +6 cards is much smaller than the difference between +2 cards and +3 cards.

I would also guess that the trashing is actually more potent. So many combos..... the same can be said for top-decking+drawing in the middle of the turn, but I think that's rarer.

[KingZog3]

couple in-general questions about watchtower:

- Which is easier: building an engine where the main draw is watchtower, or when it's library?

- Which is better on average, watchtower's topdecking on-gain or trashing on-gain?

My guess would be that it's easier with watchtower because it's cheaper and has other bonuses... if you're building a draw-to-X engine then when you play watchtower/library you hope to only have 1 or 2 cards in hand left. The difference between +5 cards and +6 cards is much smaller than the difference between +2 cards and +3 cards.

I would also guess that the trashing is actually more potent. So many combos..... the same can be said for top-decking+drawing in the middle of the turn, but I think that's rarer.

As WW said, a large of draw to X is that you often don't have enough actions, so you draw things dead. Library has the bonus of being able to sift through when you don't have any actions left.

[liopoil]

Well, you're going to need a village that can be spammed, preferably without a +card anyway for a watchtower/library engine to be feasible... so if you are having to play watchtower dead a lot you're doing something wrong I think. Plus you'll often want to keep a watchtower in hand for your buy phase.

[Warfreak2]

Fishing Village is the ideal one. Watchtower can enable Remodel to clear out coppers, or Stonemason to clear out estates. It also lets you Stonemason overpay without clogging up on Stonemasons, and certainly got a big power boost from all of the on-trash benefits of Dark Ages cards.

[liopoil]

the list of cards that combo with watchtower... is a long list. Probably longer than any other card.

[brokoli]

I think Harvest utilization is low, but I also think that's where it should be. It's not a good $5 early on, and by the time it's making you good money you should probably just buy a gold instead. When it's a terminal $1 or $2, it's terrible. Even as a terminal gold, it's pretty middling. It's tough to rely on it for +$4, and when it does show up, you wish you had a +buy with it.

By the time it's making good money you should probably just buy a gold instead = that's why there is a cost difference
When it's a terminal $1 or $2 = almost never. 99% of the cases where I buy Harvest, it produce at least $3
Even as a terminal gold = that's decent for $5, and terminal gold can have uses against thief/NB/Pirate Ship
It's tough to rely on it for $4 : not at all
When it does show up, you wish you had a +buy with it : usually you want a harvest in engines, and usually to go for engine you want +buy somewhere.

The cards I see often as underused are Fortune Teller, Harvest, Contraband (I underused during a long time myself), and Duke (so many games I won because my opponent underrated duke, it's impressive).

[Count Grishnakh]

the list of cards that combo with watchtower... is a long list. Probably longer than any other card.

Exactly. People are bringing up some excellent points about watchtower's limitations, but all cards have them. I couldn't agree more with your point that if you play watchtower dead you are doing something wrong.

Inevitably there will be times that you have a watchtower and no extra actions, Especially early in the game. No big deal. Don't play it and top deck the card(s) you buy. Watchtower almost always finds a way to justify its spot in your hand.

Wandering Winder has a point about the drawbacks of "Draw to" cards for engines, but I enjoy making engines with "draw to" cards because it stimulates my creativity and is very rewarding and potent when I pull it off.

[Count Grishnakh]

couple in-general questions about watchtower:

- Which is easier: building an engine where the main draw is watchtower, or when it's library?

- Which is better on average, watchtower's topdecking on-gain or trashing on-gain?

My guess would be that it's easier with watchtower because it's cheaper and has other bonuses... if you're building a draw-to-X engine then when you play watchtower/library you hope to only have 1 or 2 cards in hand left. The difference between +5 cards and +6 cards is much smaller than the difference between +2 cards and +3 cards.

I would also guess that the trashing is actually more potent. So many combos..... the same can be said for top-decking+drawing in the middle of the turn, but I think that's rarer.

As WW said, a large of draw to X is that you often don't have enough actions, so you draw things dead. Library has the bonus of being able to sift through when you don't have any actions left.

When I build engines with watchtower I only have this issue in the early stages of the game. I am not at all bothered by this, however, as I need to buy a bunch of engine parts so I just opt to not play the watchtower, buy a card and top deck it.

[Count Grishnakh]

Interesting. I didn't notice Watchtower being under-utilized. If anything, I imagine it to be a card new players overrate. I know I did. It's one of those cards that can provide support for a lot of strategies, but on its own it can drag you down. The Watchtower that you don't get to play can top-deck a card you get, but it could have been a silver that lets you hit $5 or $6. Still, it has so many uses.

While we're talking about under-rated/under-utilized cards...

Silk Road

I feel that new players tend to really underestimate this card. That's understandable, as it doesn't seem so impressive when you first read its text. It's similar to Gardens in games where it's the only kingdom VP card, but gets boosted by a larger variety of decks. That Provinces boost these up is a big point in its favour. Basically, any deck with longevity can take advantage of Silk Roads being in the kingdom.

When there is just one other VP card in the kingdom though, Silk Road will almost certainly come into play. It gives a huge boost to already viable sources of alt-VP. Suddenly Trader, Explorer, and Bureaucrat start looking very attractive. At the same time, it's just a load to players who weren't prepared to boost them up but try to deny their green opponent the VP. It's almost like denying Dukes when your opponent got 6 of the 8 Duchies. You're just helping the game reach a 3-pile ending.

Yeah it's true silk roads can be under-rated, especially by hot shot players who can't resist trying to build a deck that can get them two provinces in a turn.. I've won SOOO many times because of silk roads.

I even won a pirates / colony game due to silk roads once.. The one guy was trying to build an engine with pirate ships, I made his task difficult by making an engine of my own with highways, Counts, and silk roads. I started greening really early, of course. The other player thought the pirateship engine guy was destroying us all, and he was shocked to see me in the lead once the game ended. See the thing is the other two players split the colonies and I had almost all the estates, duchies and silk roads to myself. 

That's probably the best part of a well-executed silk road strategy, the shocked look on people's faces when you've won with few or little provinces

[WanderingWinder]

I can do point-by-point refutations, too

I think Harvest utilization is low, but I also think that's where it should be. It's not a good $5 early on, and by the time it's making you good money you should probably just buy a gold instead. When it's a terminal $1 or $2, it's terrible. Even as a terminal gold, it's pretty middling. It's tough to rely on it for +$4, and when it does show up, you wish you had a +buy with it.

By the time it's making good money you should probably just buy a gold instead = that's why there is a cost difference

Which is a largely irrelevant difference by the time you'd want it?

When it's a terminal $1 or $2 = almost never. 99% of the cases where I buy Harvest, it produce at least $3

0.0384% of the time people quote 99%, the actual percentage is close to 99%. Besides this... well, it should be that way, but this doesn't mean people should buy it in MORE cases where it might not?

Even as a terminal gold = that's decent for $5, and terminal gold can have uses against thief/NB/Pirate Ship

That's actually pretty awful for $5. $5s are generally better than gold, this is worse, and significantly so in engines where it might be $0.

It's tough to rely on it for $4 : not at all

I think we have different definitions of "rely".

When it does show up, you wish you had a +buy with it : usually you want a harvest in engines, and usually to go for engine you want +buy somewhere.

You really don't want it in engines, though - if you draw your deck before it, it doesn't make money. Anyway, there are usually better payloads for an engine.

The cards I see often as underused are Fortune Teller, Harvest, Contraband (I underused during a long time myself), and Duke (so many games I won because my opponent underrated duke, it's impressive).

That's a fine list, and I don't have too much disagreement with it.

[Count Grishnakh]

Re: Watchtower: depends on who you're playing with. People here know all about the gainers synergy, particularly university (which is a very tasty combo). Is it underrated? Surely, by some people. The question is what group of people you're talking about.
I would say the defensive powers are probably a little bit underrated - you can chain watchtowers to keep yourself fairly well defended in some circumstances, but in general, the card isn't really.

60% of the cost of library is not something you want to use. Costs don't scale linearly, really almost at all. You at least have to note that they each cost 1 buy/gain apiece, but that the $$ cost is more about a limitation on when you can get them than anything else.


One thing to note about draw-to-x cards in general is that they are not all that great for engine building. (Ducks). Yes, you can make an engine with them, but the thing is that it's harder to chain them to get full benefit. If I have a 5 card hand, Watchtower draws me 2 cards. But if I've already played one, then I am going to need to play some other actions to get any draw power from the second. This sometimes means disappearing villages (or those rare non-draw non-terminals like lighthouse), but very often it means playing some non-draw terminals. And then to not draw things dead, you basically need to have more villages than you otherwise would, plus you have less choice over the priority you play your other cards in.

This is actually a pretty significant drawback.

Thanks for gracing my thread WanderingWinder 

I agree with everything you said. The drawback you speak of is there, but there are situations where that particular limitation of watchtower doesn't apply so much.. Like you said, if it is feasible to acquire disappearing villages or non-draw terminals, (I would add to that list non-draw trashers like rebuild and butcher.. You can do some pretty crazy stuff with a few butchers, a bunch of fortresses and some watchtowers)

Edit: Also extra actions are  plentiful, then you can play a lot of terminal actions and reduce the size of your hand and still draw to 6

[achmed_sender]

Quite some time ago I thought Harvest is really underrated and you should use it so much more than now, but I'm convinced now that Harvest IS quite a mediocre to bad card, but still it's rarely damaging bad. The thing is, other cards like Saboteur have boards where they shine, whereas Harvest does this not (or veery rarely) . The problem of Harvest is that is in most cases it's like Gold, sometimes better and often weaker, but Gold is always available and therefor competes with Harvest. It's like a rule that says if Thief is in play, add Noble Brigand to the Kingdom. Thief might be bought on some board, but if Brigand is always there, too, Thief becomes even less bought. So, if there wouldn't be a Gold pile every game, Harvest would be a much better card.

There are two problems with cards that are quite bad. Firstly, you desperately want to find a use for them in every game they appear (this is often true for me) and you will ergo lose a lot of time or at least notice that this card didn't do much for your win. But even worse is the second thing: You won't care about this card after playing it a few times and losing with it. You won't try out if this card is good enough in various situations because it's an uncalculated risk. You just don't know the strenghts of it.

Getting back to Harvest, here's a game where I'm convinced that Harvest was a way better choice than Gold, because there are cards that care about actions: Throne Room and Herald, so the coin maximum of 1 Harvest increases significantly, comparing to Gold, and it isn't a stop card anymore.
Another good example where you want to prefer Harvest to Gold are Minstrel engines, maybe also Draw-to-X strategies.