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[Count Grishnakh]

Expoiting luck is a lot different from exploiting rules....

You're right. I should have said exploiting your luck for the biggest possible pay off, through deft manipulation of the rules.

And I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just not how I play because I take pride in attributing my wins to playing well, not by ending the game on a personal high point before anyone else gets their high point..

[werothegreat]

Expoiting luck is a lot different from exploiting rules....

You're right. I should have said exploiting your luck for the biggest possible pay off, through deft manipulation of the rules.

And I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just not how I play because I take pride in attributing my wins to playing well, not by ending the game on a personal high point before anyone else gets their high point..

I think you're just a sore loser.  Try working on your game so that you hit the megaturn first next time.

[Ozle]

Again, there is no deft manipulation of rules. Those ARE the rules.

You entire argument could be said in the same way by someone buying more VP's than you.

You can pride yourself on whatever you like and play however you like, but your reasoning behind is unfortunately based on a false premise that the other person is doing something unfair because they got lucky, and your blaming it on underhanded behaviour.

Id love to play poker with you sometime....

[KingZog3]

That whole discussion of honor sounded vaguely Klingon...

To the OP, think of Dominion kind of like Poker. If I have Pocket Aces (Texas Hold Em') the odds are with me, and I'll bet accordingly. I might still lose, even if I make the right play. You and your opponent played correctly, but he won the odds. It happens. It's annoying. I don't like it when someone opens Treasure map+Great Hall and beats me, but hey, he got lucky and drew his Treasure maps together. Be satisfied knowing that over 100 games like that, you would win more often than him.Your KC game would end up close to 50/50 win rate.
And I guarantee you would not be starting this discussion if you had got the mega turn, no matter how much you say it's a "cheap" way to win.

EDIT: sort of ninja'd by oozle on the poker thing.

[Count Grishnakh]

That whole discussion of honor sounded vaguely Klingon...

And I guarantee you would not be starting this discussion if you had got the mega turn, no matter how much you say it's a "cheap" way to win.

Thank you for your response

But you are wrong about me. I don't use dirty tactics. I try to play honorably, and win through subterfuge and strategem, rather than sucker punching someone and running away

The only time I three pile for a win is when other players are hoarding cards, and they drain the frist two piles, in which case they are being punished for their greed.

[Count Grishnakh]

Again, there is no deft manipulation of rules. Those ARE the rules.

You entire argument could be said in the same way by someone buying more VP's than you.

You can pride yourself on whatever you like and play however you like, but your reasoning behind is unfortunately based on a false premise that the other person is doing something unfair because they got lucky, and your blaming it on underhanded behaviour.

Id love to play poker with you sometime....

I didn't use the word "unfair" I said they are willfully skewing the game in favor of luck... And my prejudices are such that such strategies are morally inferior to those strategies which allow everyone to let their decks do the talking, rather than chance

I abhor poker it is offensive to my sensibilities. Dominion is a gentleman's game. I would like to invite you into my cigar room for a game of dominion, but my house rule is that you can not intentionally buy or gain a card for a three pile win.

[KingZog3]

No love for the Star Trek reference 

That whole discussion of honor sounded vaguely Klingon...

And I guarantee you would not be starting this discussion if you had got the mega turn, no matter how much you say it's a "cheap" way to win.

Thank you for your response

But you are wrong about me. I don't use dirty tactics. I try to play honorably, and win through subterfuge and strategem, rather than sucker punching someone and running away

The only time I three pile for a win is when other players are hoarding cards, and they drain the frist two piles, in which case they are being punished for their greed.

I don't know what to say. If you actually never consider an IGG rush, or a Gardens rush, or Duke/Duchy strategy, then you are legitimately playing the game badly. It's like asking to lose those games. If you play Monopoly, you try to negotiate for the orange properties, because they are statistically the most landed on in the game. You could avoid buying them and say it's honorable, but actually its just a dumb play.

And you sound very high and mighty with the "punish for their greed" talk. Maybe you don't realize this, but you aren't doing anyone any favors. You aren't even helping yourself. Someone already said that runners don't wait at the finish line for the others. If you're ahead, well then you're ahead. If the one person stumps, the race isn't restarted to give him another chance.

Oh yeah, and it's a game...yeah...Dominion is a game.

[2.71828.....]

Honorable? I absolutely love 3-piling when I am behind on an engine game, my opponent doesn't see it coming, and I win by a single vp on a tricky 3-pile.

[Count Grishnakh]

No love for the Star Trek reference 

That whole discussion of honor sounded vaguely Klingon...

And I guarantee you would not be starting this discussion if you had got the mega turn, no matter how much you say it's a "cheap" way to win.

Thank you for your response

But you are wrong about me. I don't use dirty tactics. I try to play honorably, and win through subterfuge and strategem, rather than sucker punching someone and running away

The only time I three pile for a win is when other players are hoarding cards, and they drain the frist two piles, in which case they are being punished for their greed.

I don't know what to say. If you actually never consider an IGG rush, or a Gardens rush, or Duke/Duchy strategy, then you are legitimately playing the game badly. It's like asking to lose those games. If you play Monopoly, you try to negotiate for the orange properties, because they are statistically the most landed on in the game. You could avoid buying them and say it's honorable, but actually its just a dumb play.

And you sound very high and mighty with the "punish for their greed" talk. Maybe you don't realize this, but you aren't doing anyone any favors. You aren't even helping yourself. Someone already said that runners don't wait at the finish line for the others. If you're ahead, well then you're ahead. If the one person stumps, the race isn't restarted to give him another chance.

Oh yeah, and it's a game...yeah...Dominion is a game.

Definitely a lot of love for the Star Trek reference. It made me smile 

The problem with the "runners" analogy is that everyone is running simultaneously.
In dominion, the person who three piles gets to act and deny everyone their turn... If it is truly a race (which implies simultaneous activity) then when the game ends each of the other players should be allowed to play their hands and buy whatever VPS are up for grabs. This introduces all kinds of other problems but this is why the running analogy fails is because actions are not simultaneous and there will always be a person with an extra turn

I assure you I have done "three pile" strategies such as gardens, vineyards, duchies.. In fact that's how I earned my nickname "the count"

my Pro ranking on GOKO is 4.5K I've been playing Dominion for 5 months.. is that good or bad?

... What I don't do, is this: I don't prematurely end a game by gratuitously draining decks.. She can't say No said that doing so is extremely unethical and She can't say no is in the top 10 pro rankings

[KingZog3]

She can't say No said that doing so is extremely unethical and She can't say no is in the top 10 pro rankings

Shecan'tsayNo was joking. Sarcasm that it's unethical to do this when he is losing.

[BadAssMutha]

I love a good 3-pile win - it can take a lot of skill to see it coming, and to realize exactly what you need to leave behind so that your opponent doesn't get the opportunity.

The only wins I consider "bad" in Dominion are inferior strategies that win due to shuffle luck. I'm not talking about a mirror match swinging one way or the other, or even strategies that are comparable in their win rates. I'm talking about losing to people who open Village for no apparent reason, or buy a potion on the first turn when only Possession is on the board. Low-percentage strategies can be the right move in some 3+ player games (especially if you go last), but I don't play a whole lot of those. I understand that even a great strategy will lose to a Lucky Chancellor from time to time, but it just irks me when it happens.

[Kirian]

... What I don't do, is this: I don't prematurely end a game by gratuitously draining decks.. She can't say No said that doing so is extremely unethical and She can't say no is in the top 10 pro rankings

Hahahahahahaha...

*breath*

hahahaha...  heh.  Hah.

You need to get your sarcasm meter checked.  Go read what SCSN actually said.  Then read it again, assuming sarcasm.

[KingZog3]

I'm talking about losing to people who open Village for no apparent reason, or buy a potion on the first turn when only Possession is on the board.

Much like my Treasure Map+Great Hall example

[Count Grishnakh]

... What I don't do, is this: I don't prematurely end a game by gratuitously draining decks.. She can't say No said that doing so is extremely unethical and She can't say no is in the top 10 pro rankings

Hahahahahahaha...

*breath*

hahahaha...  heh.  Hah.

You need to get your sarcasm meter checked.  Go read what SCSN actually said.  Then read it again, assuming sarcasm.

Well I'm glad I made someone laugh, even if it was unintentional. I didn't mean to incite controversy or offend anyone.

I was taught growing up "its not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game".. I feel guilty for winning by draining decks

But now I see winning is all that matters... *logs onto goko with two accounts on two laptops and hosts a three player game*

[Count Grishnakh]

I'm talking about losing to people who open Village for no apparent reason, or buy a potion on the first turn when only Possession is on the board.

Much like my Treasure Map+Great Hall example

Well I'm new here but you're my favorite poster so far. Blueblimp also seems like a most judicious man of discerning tastes and that I would welcome into my cigar room for a game of dominion any day of the week.

Also I know for a fact we have played eachother on Dominion, I remember your name

[2.71828.....]

But now I see winning is all that matters... *logs onto goko with two accounts on two laptops and hosts a three player game*

If you are going to do that, make sure you do it well. There are high standards out there.

[Kirian]

I was taught growing up "its not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game".. I feel guilty for winning by draining decks

But now I see winning is all that matters... *logs onto goko with two accounts on two laptops and hosts a three player game*

The idea you are looking for is between these two extremes:

"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning." -- Reiner Knizia

[Jimmmmm]

One thing that I really love about Dominion is that you can have a really strong board, with players building steadily towards a massive megaturn... only for one player to 3-pile and win 1-0. Brilliant!

Count Grishnakh, it sounds like you simply don't like the 3-pile rule. That's fine, and when you're playing IRL it's totally fine to play a variant. But here you'll definitely find yourself in a minority. To me it's no different than saying you don't like the game ending when the Provinces run out because another player might still have a chance to catch up with Duchies and/or alternate VP.

A hugely important element to a game of Dominion is timing. That is, knowing roughly how long the game has to go and knowing when to keep building your deck and when to maximise your points. Another element to that is ensuring that another player cannot end the game in the lead. If all players are keeping track of piles, as they definitely should be, a 3-pile win is not a sneaky move, because you should know roughly how many cards your opponent can gain in one turn as well as how many cards it would take to end the game. Surely taking this out of the game and having one less thing to worry about would reward skilled players less rather than more, right? If you understand the game and are paying attention, a 3-pile isn't dirty or underhanded, it's simply playing the game.

[Count Grishnakh]

One thing that I really love about Dominion is that you can have a really strong board, with players building steadily towards a massive megaturn... only for one player to 3-pile and win 1-0. Brilliant!

Count Grishnakh, it sounds like you simply don't like the 3-pile rule. That's fine, and when you're playing IRL it's totally fine to play a variant. But here you'll definitely find yourself in a minority. To me it's no different than saying you don't like the game ending when the Provinces run out because another player might still have a chance to catch up with Duchies and/or alternate VP.

A hugely important element to a game of Dominion is timing. That is, knowing roughly how long the game has to go and knowing when to keep building your deck and when to maximise your points. Another element to that is ensuring that another player cannot end the game in the lead. If all players are keeping track of piles, as they definitely should be, a 3-pile win is not a sneaky move, because you should know roughly how many cards your opponent can gain in one turn as well as how many cards it would take to end the game. Surely taking this out of the game and having one less thing to worry about would reward skilled players less rather than more, right? If you understand the game and are paying attention, a 3-pile isn't dirty or underhanded, it's simply playing the game.

you're right I just really hate that rule

Like somehow the world magically ends and the army I built no longer matters? get outta here.. The thing you love most about Dominion is the only thing I don't like about it

[PSGarak]

In a mirror mega-deck game, the three-pile ending acts as a check against over-extending yourself. If you spend too long building your deck before you pull the trigger, you leave yourself vulnerable to sudden game-ends. I like this, because it means that even mega-decks have a balancing act to play. I think this makes the game more interesting. Having to navigate around the three-pile raises the skill ceiling in a mega-deck game, whereas without that constraint the game is often pretty straightforward.

[Count Grishnakh]

In a mirror mega-deck game, the three-pile ending acts as a check against over-extending yourself. If you spend too long building your deck before you pull the trigger, you leave yourself vulnerable to sudden game-ends. I like this, because it means that even mega-decks have a balancing act to play. I think this makes the game more interesting. Having to navigate around the three-pile raises the skill ceiling in a mega-deck game, whereas without that constraint the game is often pretty straightforward.

Thank you for addressing exactly what I'm talking about. And I know what you mean about spending too much time building but there are cases where people will go for ridiculous three pile endings a turn or two after you have BOTH bought your kings courts. (i.e. you are keeping pace with eachother, its not like one person bought kings courts faster, its just a player takes advantage of the fact that he was the first to have his KC line up with some good actions)

[florrat]

By the way: Welcome to the forum Count Grishnakh. As you can see we really like discussing things on this forum, hopefully it won't scare you away that many posters here have a different opinion than you have.

I see your argument, and sometimes I feel the same. Sometimes I just want to build up a big engine, without the need to green or watch for 3-piling early. I think it would be a lot of fun to play the following variant a few times. You choose a kingdom where a big engine is possible, but where you let EVERY pile have, say, 50 cards in it. You can then build until you have a very very strong engine, and then have turns where you can buy like 8 provinces a turn. I think it would be hilarious to play that once or twice.

On the other hand, I do agree with most others here that the 3-piling rule increases the amount of strategy of the game, and wouldn't want to get rid of it.


PS: Congrats on the #1-position of "posts per day" for the next couple of days

[Count Grishnakh]

By the way: Welcome to the forum Count Grishnakh. As you can see we really like discussing things on this forum, hopefully it won't scare you away that many posters here have a different opinion than you have.

I see your argument, and sometimes I feel the same. Sometimes I just want to build up a big engine, without the need to green or watch for 3-piling early. I think it would be a lot of fun to play the following variant a few times. You choose a kingdom where a big engine is possible, but where you let EVERY pile have, say, 50 cards in it. You can then build until you have a very very strong engine, and then have turns where you can buy like 8 provinces a turn. I think it would be hilarious to play that once or twice.

On the other hand, I do agree with most others here that the 3-piling rule increases the amount of strategy of the game, and wouldn't want to get rid of it.


PS: Congrats on the #1-position of "posts per day" for the next couple of days

Thank you so much for welcoming me. In the future my posts won't be so controversial, I swear.

 It's just an annoying play style to combat sometimes because they put you in a position where if you green up to stay ahead, then they will keep building their engine and out-engine you... But if you keep up with them engine wise, they buy a few VPS and drain the remaining cards with their engine

I played a game where I basically had to choose between getting a platinum or a province.. (we both stocked up on fishing villages and catacombs, draining those two piles) I chose to buy the platinum because if I bought a province he would have a platinum and I wouldn't...(we both hit 9$ on the same turn) then the next turn he turns around and buys an island and buys 6 village squares to end the game..

If I had bought the province he would have plat and I wouldn't so he'd simply buy colonies and beat me that way

so what it boils down to is this: he wins because he had the first turn

[jaybeez]

so what it boils down to is this: he wins because he had the first turn

That happens in games that end on Provinces/Colonies all the time.

[blueblimp]

so what it boils down to is this: he wins because he had the first turn

That happens in games that end on Provinces/Colonies all the time.

That'd be an interesting statistic to run: first-player advantage in games that end on Provinces vs games that end on 3-pile. My guess is that the first-player advantage is indeed a lot bigger in 3-pile games, because those tend to be the type of fast game that favours player 1 most. I can think of obvious exceptions though (Governor is super-fast and ends games on Provinces) so seeing the data would be interesting.