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[WanderingWinder]

Ok, read the whole topic.

It seems that you've constructed these imaginary rules that restrict your play and ability to win, and you expect other people to be bind by the same rules. It doesn't work like that. People, especially on-line, cannot know what you expect of the game and what do you find "fair". Even if they did, why would they care? They play to win not to make you feel good.

Moreover, the game doesn't care how you won. It doesn't give points for style or elegancy or fairness or whatever. You win the same whether you bought the last province on turn 32 in a slog or you emptied the whole supply turn 4.

Most importantly, where do you draw the line?
First, how do you define "no piledriving early"? How early is too early? No provinces bought? one province? two? Than, if that is not fair, why is opening Mountebank/Chapel or Mint/Fool's Gold on 5/2 opening fair? Isn't that exploiting luck too? How about drawing your Treasure maps both on turn 5? If you play them, is that exploiting the luck too? You may say it's not, and MIGHT think it is. Now, what makes you right and not me? I might feel it's very unfair and that you are exploiting your luck. Same goes to your little 'rule'. It is impossible to make adopt one universal rule of subjective "fairness". If it is in the rules, it's fair. Making subjective, superfluous rules will make playing the game impossible if everybody is playing what they theselves feel "fair", and expect everybody else to obey. You'll end up with game where nobody is allowed to buy a village along with 2 torturers cause double torturer chain is unfair, unfun and doesn't let the other person play out their deck.

How early is too early? No provinces bought is too early IMO unless its a slog

This is entirely capricious and selective. Define "a slog". Also, why is it different? What if it's a colony game? Rushing out a bunch of Silk Roads or gardens isn't okay? etc.

There is a difference between exploiting luck with cards and exploiting luck by ending the game on your first big lucky draw, thus denying anyone the opportunity to have such a turn.

How? I completely don't understand what the difference is. You've had a mega-turn that you somehow mythically weren't allowed to actually do what you wanted on, so now I can? You realize that the situation is basically now flipped, as the first guy didn't really have a chance to mega-turn, since he's artificially prevented from doing so.

Let me offer an analogy.

Great! I love analogies (as you can tell above).

Let's say you play poker with some friends for money. In the FIRST or second game you made some good decisions but you also had extraordinary luck, and you just won 100$ from the other poker players. Immediately after the game you say "Alright guys, I think I'm going to call it a night, see ya later!

This is considered bad form by poker players.

I've never known anyone who considers this bad form. On the other hand, I don't know anybody (personally) who's rich enough (stupid enough?) to be willing to bet $100 on a single hand of poker, particularly in a cash game. Certainly if I go to the casino and rip a good hand on the first go (poker, blackjack, slots... doesn't matter), they don't care if I quit at that point.
Now, if I played a cash game of poker with my friends, and I quite after the first hand, it would be weird. You wouldn't do it. But the thing here is, the reason you're playing poker is to have fun, and it feels weird to quit so fast. So LF is right here, you just play the next game.

exploiting your luck using the mechanics of the cards isn't as annoying as exploiting your luck and taking advantage of the fact that you can choose to end the game at a point which is self-serving and deny other players a reprisal.

What? This doesn't make sense. How are the mechanics of the cards different than the mechanics of the game? I don't even understand which is which. Of course you're doing self-serving - it's a competitive game and you're trying to win. Ending the game while you're ahead is the ENTIRE POINT. Doing it on provinces is no different from doing it on piles in this respect. You always deny other players a reprisal. I really really don't understand what the basis for any of this differences you see is, other than you were unhappy that it happened to you.

Of course feel free to play with whatever house rules you want. I think they make the game worse, but be my guest. Just don't get upset at other people when they play by the published rules.

[michaeljb]

As much as people here do not like the guy, Sirilin wrote a nice article called "playing to win". It's a good article about competitive mindset, might be worth a read. Your philosophy reminds me of his "scrub mentality".  http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

For further reading, see the TV Tropes page on Scrubs. It's written specifically about video games but the principles still apply.

[Awaclus]

Let me offer an analogy.

Let's say you play poker with some friends for money. In the FIRST or second game you made some good decisions but you also had extraordinary luck, and you just won 100$ from the other poker players. Immediately after the game you say "Alright guys, I think I'm going to call it a night, see ya later!

This is considered bad form by poker players.
exploiting your luck using the mechanics of the cards isn't as annoying as exploiting your luck and taking advantage of the fact that you can choose to end the game at a point which is self-serving and deny other players a reprisal.

Let me offer an amendment to your analogy. You're likening a single game of Dominion to an entire night of Poker. Instead, think of a single game of Dominion as a single hand of Poker. Your opponents don't have the opportunity to win their money back that game. Instead, they get to go first next game and now they have first-turn advantage.

Your amendment is valid if you are indeed playing rematches, however I play on Goko where I am not guaranteed a rematch. If all you get is a single game against opponent, then my original analogy stands.

If you're offering a rematch and he declines, then your original analogy almost stands, but even then, it's possible that your opponent just really needs to leave - maybe he has to leave for work, maybe his son just fell from a table, or maybe he has just been playing Dominion for 6 hours and needs to take a break. It isn't necessarily like he's been waiting for a game in which he gets lucky and quits immediately after winning that game. Plus, you're not playing Goko Dominion for money, so it doesn't even matter who wins the game.

[Count Grishnakh]

Let me offer an analogy.

Let's say you play poker with some friends for money. In the FIRST or second game you made some good decisions but you also had extraordinary luck, and you just won 100$ from the other poker players. Immediately after the game you say "Alright guys, I think I'm going to call it a night, see ya later!

This is considered bad form by poker players.
exploiting your luck using the mechanics of the cards isn't as annoying as exploiting your luck and taking advantage of the fact that you can choose to end the game at a point which is self-serving and deny other players a reprisal.

Let me offer an amendment to your analogy. You're likening a single game of Dominion to an entire night of Poker. Instead, think of a single game of Dominion as a single hand of Poker. Your opponents don't have the opportunity to win their money back that game. Instead, they get to go first next game and now they have first-turn advantage.

Your amendment is valid if you are indeed playing rematches, however I play on Goko where I am not guaranteed a rematch. If all you get is a single game against opponent, then my original analogy stands.

Well, you're not going to be playing your house rules on Goko either, so why did you suggest them as solutions?

I suggested them as solutions because they are solutions when not playing on Goko. My proposed solutions may be futile for Goko but just because my solutions aren't practical in my case doesn't mean I'm not correct in diagnosing the problem.

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

[WanderingWinder]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

[2.71828.....]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

It is problematic because it makes the game more than just a province rush.

[KingZog3]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

He pointed out reasons. We must accept them.

[Ozle]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

It is problematic because it makes the game more than just a province rush.

But the game is meant to be more than just a province rush....

[Count Grishnakh]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

[AJD]

For further reading, see the TV Tropes page on Scrubs.

The TV Tropes page on Scrubs?

[Count Grishnakh]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

It is problematic because it makes the game more than just a province rush.

But the game is meant to be more than just a province rush....

And the game is also meant to be more than a "drain the last pile with one more VP than your opponent" rush

[Ozle]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

Isnt there a mercy rule in baseball?

[Ozle]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

It is problematic because it makes the game more than just a province rush.

But the game is meant to be more than just a province rush....

And the game is also meant to be more than a "drain the last pile with one more VP than your opponent" rush

It is .

[michaeljb]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

I'd say when your opponent can't take any more turns, they've definitely been rendered powerless

Do you also feel it's wrong to beat an opponent whose only points are from playing a bunch of Monuments every turn? If they haven't greened at all, they're definitely far from "powerless."

Re:baseball, the rules of the game specify 9 innings (or 8.5 if the home team is already ahead at that point), so you play 9 (or 8.5) innings...the Dominion rules specify empty Provinces, Colonies, or any 3 piles, so you play till that point. A second inning walk-off grand slam is more like buying a Province on turn 3 and declaring victory than it is like a sudden 3-pile ending.

[Count Grishnakh]

so what it boils down to is this: he wins because he had the first turn

That happens in games that end on Provinces/Colonies all the time.

That'd be an interesting statistic to run: first-player advantage in games that end on Provinces vs games that end on 3-pile. My guess is that the first-player advantage is indeed a lot bigger in 3-pile games, because those tend to be the type of fast game that favours player 1 most. I can think of obvious exceptions though (Governor is super-fast and ends games on Provinces) so seeing the data would be interesting.

EXACTLY. This is one of the reasons I find the three pile rule problematic. The problem is compounded in three player games, where you must pay for the mistakes of the player who is happily draining piles thinking they will get to build a deck, when you helplessly look on in horror, knowing full well he is unwittingly being a king maker and dooming himself.

[michaeljb]

For further reading, see the TV Tropes page on Scrubs.

The TV Tropes page on Scrubs?

Haha, meant plural for "Scrub", not the show...at least my link did point to the right place.

[michaeljb]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

Isnt there a mercy rule in baseball?

Pretty sure there's not in MLB, but in the one summer of little league I played I think there was 10-run mercy rule. No idea about any other levels.

[Count Grishnakh]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

I'd say when your opponent can't take any more turns, they've definitely been rendered powerless

Do you also feel it's wrong to beat an opponent whose only points are from playing a bunch of Monuments every turn? If they haven't greened at all, they're definitely far from "powerless."

Re:baseball, the rules of the game specify 9 innings (or 8.5 if the home team is already ahead at that point), so you play 9 (or 8.5) innings...the Dominion rules specify empty Provinces, Colonies, or any 3 piles, so you play till that point. A second inning walk-off grand slam is more like buying a Province on turn 3 and declaring victory than it is like a sudden 3-pile ending.

I'm saying imagine if the rules of Baseball were different. Imagine if it were possible to prematurely end the game legally while you were ahead.

The monument example you specified is an exception to my rule of course. As long as you have a province or its equivalent in VP, then its fair game to end the game via three pile

[michaeljb]

I'm saying imagine if the rules of Baseball were different. Imagine if it were possible to prematurely end the game legally while you were ahead.

Then the optimal strategy would be to end while you were ahead, and it wouldn't be "premature." I doubt there would be riots, because baseball is an old game and people would be used to the rules. Or they wouldn't have liked it enough for it to be popular enough to have enough fans to get angry enough to riot. (Did I say "enough" enough times? Enough.)

The monument example you specified is an exception to my rule of course. As long as you have a province or its equivalent in VP, then its fair game to end the game via three pile

 

As much as people here do not like the guy, Sirilin wrote a nice article called "playing to win". It's a good article about competitive mindset, might be worth a read. Your philosophy reminds me of his "scrub mentality".  http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

For further reading, see the TV Tropes page on Scrubs. It's written specifically about video games but the principles still apply.

[Ozle]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

Isnt there a mercy rule in baseball?

Pretty sure there's not in MLB, but in the one summer of little league I played I think there was 10-run mercy rule. No idea about any other levels.

yeah, in leagues outside the MLB though there is.
At the very least the olympics its 10 runs ahead

[Count Grishnakh]

Wandering Winder, for me to qualify my statements and define everything as precisely as you wish me to, I would need to do a doctoral dissertation on why the three player rule is problematic and why it makes the game more chaotic

I define a slog as a game where there are a lot of curses or ruins floating around and little means to eliminate them. In these same games, its common for two piles to run out faster than normal, therefore it should be obvious to everyone that the game is going to be a three-pile ending, so usually the game becomes a duchy rush, which is as it should be.

To address your comments about gardens, silk roads, etc.. You should have one province or its VP equivalent

The ability to drain three piles to win is simply overpowered. It gives WAY too much advantage to the player who goes first. It skews the game too far in the direction of chaos. There are too few means to defend against it. And if there is a third player they can completely rob you of any hope of defending against people who fully exploit the three pile rule.

[Count Grishnakh]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

Isnt there a mercy rule in baseball?

Pretty sure there's not in MLB, but in the one summer of little league I played I think there was 10-run mercy rule. No idea about any other levels.

yeah, in leagues outside the MLB though there is.
At the very least the olympics its 10 runs ahead

Well there you go! In dominion you should either give the other players a chance to play their hands and buy whatever VPs are available, or have a rule where they must either have 6 VP minimum or be 3 VP ahead minimum, something along those lines.

[LastFootnote]

Let me offer an analogy.

Let's say you play poker with some friends for money. In the FIRST or second game you made some good decisions but you also had extraordinary luck, and you just won 100$ from the other poker players. Immediately after the game you say "Alright guys, I think I'm going to call it a night, see ya later!

This is considered bad form by poker players.
exploiting your luck using the mechanics of the cards isn't as annoying as exploiting your luck and taking advantage of the fact that you can choose to end the game at a point which is self-serving and deny other players a reprisal.

Let me offer an amendment to your analogy. You're likening a single game of Dominion to an entire night of Poker. Instead, think of a single game of Dominion as a single hand of Poker. Your opponents don't have the opportunity to win their money back that game. Instead, they get to go first next game and now they have first-turn advantage.

Your amendment is valid if you are indeed playing rematches, however I play on Goko where I am not guaranteed a rematch. If all you get is a single game against opponent, then my original analogy stands.

Well, you're not going to be playing your house rules on Goko either, so why did you suggest them as solutions?

I suggested them as solutions because they are solutions when not playing on Goko. My proposed solutions may be futile for Goko but just because my solutions aren't practical in my case doesn't mean I'm not correct in diagnosing the problem.

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

So you say there's a problem and suggest house rules to fix it. I suggest that in person, they are unnecessary. You then say you were talking about Goko. But when I ask why you suggested house rules, you say you were talking about IRL play. What?

I really dislike David Sirlin, but in this case he's right on the money. You, sir, are a scrub. You get beaten by a legitimate tactic, and instead of trying to adapt to it in future games, you cry "unfair!" and suggest everyone play by your house rules. I suggest you either learn to deal with 3-piling or play a different game that you see as more "fair".

[michaeljb]

In these same games, its common for two piles to run out faster than normal, therefore it should be obvious to everyone that the game is going to be a three-pile ending, so usually the game becomes a duchy rush, which is as it should be.

It should also be obvious that KC engine games with lots of +Buy will end in 3-piles...

(emphasis mine)

I don't see how the three piling rule is a technicality - it's a major part of the game! It enables all kinds of strategies and curbs others. It actually adds tons of strategic depth. It's why you see players skirting around how much they build their engines and buying what look like random duchies at weird points. It's a huge part of the interaction in the game.

Well there you go! In dominion you should either give the other players a chance to play their hands and buy whatever VPs are available, or have a rule where they must either have 6 VP minimum or be 3 VP ahead minimum, something along those lines.

Wasn't Ozle's point about the mercy rule that if a team did get enough runs early it would "prematurely" end the game? I don't see how the mercy rule helps your case.

[Ozle]

And to each their own but we must admit that the three pile rule is a tad problematic for various reasons I've pointed out and other reasons that I will detail in a future thread

(bolding mine)

Why must we admit something which is untrue?

Dominion is the only game I've played whereby you can end the game through a maneuver that doesn't kill or destroy the opponent or render him powerless. If you prematurely end the game before anyone has greened at all you are basically summoning Azathoth to destroy the entire world, I don't know if you should so easily give players that power.

Imagine if it were possible to get a grand slam in the second inning of baseball, then by some strange maneuver, you could cause the game to end prematurely before the opposing team had an inning to tie or surpass your score.

Fans would riot if this happened.. Cars would be flipped.. And sometimes I feel like flipping a car after this happens in Dominion

Isnt there a mercy rule in baseball?

Pretty sure there's not in MLB, but in the one summer of little league I played I think there was 10-run mercy rule. No idea about any other levels.

yeah, in leagues outside the MLB though there is.
At the very least the olympics its 10 runs ahead

Well there you go! In dominion you should either give the other players a chance to play their hands and buy whatever VPs are available, or have a rule where they must either have 6 VP minimum or be 3 VP ahead minimum, something along those lines.

Thats the complete opposite of the mercy rule

In Baseball that ends the game
To apply your analogy to baseball you would let them score a few more home runs before your started scoring to end the game.