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Author Topic: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?  (Read 41080 times)

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Count Grishnakh

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Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« on: December 07, 2013, 06:21:56 pm »
+2

I'm wondering what people think about this topic, specifically, what do people think about intentionally draining three piles for a win? Is this somehow less noble than letting two decks duke it out?

For me, the only time I get annoyed in Dominion is when there are a lot of powerful cards and a lot of buys (i.e. Kings court and goons, market, bridge, etc.) and no other attack cards to slow these potent cards down.

The game becomes almost entirely luck-based, the first person to string together a couple kings courts and action cards is able to drain all the piles before the other player gets a mega-turn

The longer the game is allowed to continue, the less the outcome is determined by draw luck. So I feel as though deliberately ending the game as early as possible after you get a couple great draws is cowardly, and an undue exploitation of lucky draws. Also, it's annoying to try to build a good deck and also have to buy victory cards as insurance against people using this tactic against you

As an aside, I would personally have a house rule of 4 piles need to be drained when King's Court is in play

I realize how much of a whiner I sound right now but I'm just curious what other people think about this topic.

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 06:27:31 pm »
+2

No.

In long form, it's all Dominion.  Sure you can blame luck, but that's part of the game.  And face it - when you get that Goons engine running smoothly and pulling in 10+ VP per turn, it's worth the times when it's used against you, and you can appreciate when something like that is pulled off well by someone else.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 06:29:57 pm »
0

No.

In long form, it's all Dominion.  Sure you can blame luck, but that's part of the game.  And face it - when you get that Goons engine running smoothly and pulling in 10+ VP per turn, it's worth the times when it's used against you, and you can appreciate when something like that is pulled off well by someone else.

Yeah, but it's annoying when it's a mirror match and basically whoever lines up two kings courts and some action cards can end the game

I was just curious if anyone thinks there is such thing as "honor" when playing Dominion, or does anything go? I realize how laughable this may sound but I'm curious.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 06:35:47 pm »
+33

I'm wondering what people think about this topic, specifically, what do people think about intentionally draining three piles for a win? Is this somehow less noble than letting two decks duke it out?

Intentionally draining three piles is extremely unethical, especially when I didn't see it coming. I have less of a problem with people doing it by accident, provided they are behind.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 06:38:29 pm »
+8

Three-piling for the win is an interesting and strategic move, and I think it's not bad.

Something that is bad however (at least in my mind), is dragging on the game when you easily can end it.  If I have a mega engine going on and my opponent is floundering and can't do anything, it's better for me to end the game on a three pile if I can easily do it rather than slowly going through the Provinces.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Jimmmmm

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 06:48:12 pm »
+5

I think spotting a 3-pile can be a really clever and elegant way of winning.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 06:52:36 pm »
0

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2013, 06:53:49 pm »
+1

3-pile endings are my special technique.

Also, you make your own shuffle luck. It isn't an easy task to line up two KCs and lots of Actions, a lot more than just buying KCs and Actions and waiting for the perfect shuffle luck is required: trashing helps, a functioning engine helps, deck manipulation (Inn, Herald, etc) helps, Tactician helps, keeping track of your deck and reshuffle control helps, knowing how to get those KCs and Actions faster helps, etc. A huge amount of skill is involved in mega turn games, and the more skilled player has a tendency to win, even though the difference in skill might not be as big as the difference in score suggests.

EDIT:
For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest
Well, what was he supposed to do? Buy 6 Wishing Wells and a Curse?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 06:56:36 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 06:58:17 pm »
+4

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

I mean, that was absolutely the right play. If you can end the game with a win, you should. If you believe any differently then the problem is with the rules of the game, not how some people play it. Also, Dominion can be a swingy game, and KC a really swingy card. If you don't like this sort of thing happening, the problem is with KC, again not with how some people play the game.

For the record, I don't think there is a problem here. I absolutely love KC and I definitely wouldn't change the 3-pile rule.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 07:01:35 pm »
0

I'm wondering what people think about this topic, specifically, what do people think about intentionally draining three piles for a win? Is this somehow less noble than letting two decks duke it out?

Intentionally draining three piles is extremely unethical, especially when I didn't see it coming. I have less of a problem with people doing it by accident, provided they are behind.

lol
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2013, 07:02:55 pm »
0

I understand what you are saying. However there are games where trashing and tactician are not available. Thus the only way to improve your odds is to buy as many action cards as possible to maximize your odds of a mega turn. The thing is a competent player will employ all of the aforementioned techniques, so once again, it boils down to luck. I don't mean to bemoan this, I'm just curious about what people think about players who exploit their first or second really good draw with powerful cards and use that leverage to end the game.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2013, 07:11:10 pm »
0

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

I mean, that was absolutely the right play. If you can end the game with a win, you should. If you believe any differently then the problem is with the rules of the game, not how some people play it. Also, Dominion can be a swingy game, and KC a really swingy card. If you don't like this sort of thing happening, the problem is with KC, again not with how some people play the game.

For the record, I don't think there is a problem here. I absolutely love KC and I definitely wouldn't change the 3-pile rule.

Okay, fair enough. I really feel as though King's court should = four pile rule, though.

I guess it is me who is the eccentric one, as I play Dominion with a "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game" mentality.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 07:14:29 pm »
+5

I understand what you are saying. However there are games where trashing and tactician are not available. Thus the only way to improve your odds is to buy as many action cards as possible to maximize your odds of a mega turn. The thing is a competent player will employ all of the aforementioned techniques, so once again, it boils down to luck. I don't mean to bemoan this, I'm just curious about what people think about players who exploit their first or second really good draw with powerful cards and use that leverage to end the game.
I would consider myself a somewhat competent player (level 42 on Isotropish), and I don't think I've ever played any megaturn game optimally.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2013, 07:19:56 pm »
+3

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

Im not quite sure what your saying the other player should do here?
Discard his winning turn and let you have a turn at winning?
You both were aiming for the same thing...he just got there first

You say its how you play the game, but you were playing in the same way as your opponent?
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2013, 07:32:42 pm »
+9

I think the only bad ways to win at Dominion are (1) cheating (2) beating someone with a rules adjudication after you knowingly let them go into error (3) acting as kingmaker to unfairly decide the order of other players.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2013, 07:47:14 pm »
+2

I don't mean to bemoan this, I'm just curious about what people think about players who exploit their first or second really good draw with powerful cards and use that leverage to end the game.

You're probably in the wrong place to get any feeling other than "yes, that's the way the game works."  Of course you use that leverage to end the game.  Dominion is about creating your own luck:  your moves create a deck that can get to that endgame status!
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2013, 07:48:16 pm »
+2

I think the only bad ways to win at Dominion are (1) cheating (2) beating someone with a rules adjudication after you knowingly let them go into error (3) acting as kingmaker to unfairly decide the order of other players.

And that last one isn't a bad way of winning, it's a bad way of losing.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2013, 07:59:26 pm »
+4

I love three-piling actually. I love winning a game with negative points, stuff like that. The only "bad" way of winning at Dominion is when you're unnecessarily drawing it out.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2013, 08:14:50 pm »
+1

I think the only bad ways to win at Dominion are (1) cheating (2) beating someone with a rules adjudication after you knowingly let them go into error (3) acting as kingmaker to unfairly decide the order of other players.

And that last one isn't a bad way of winning, it's a bad way of losing.
Well, I don't really enjoy winning as the result of someone else kingmaking much.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2013, 08:17:11 pm »
0

Even if 3-piling didn't end the game, the player that get the KC-megaturn first will almost always win...
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2013, 08:18:50 pm »
0

I think the only bad ways to win at Dominion are (1) cheating (2) beating someone with a rules adjudication after you knowingly let them go into error (3) acting as kingmaker to unfairly decide the order of other players.

And that last one isn't a bad way of winning, it's a bad way of losing.
Well, I don't really enjoy winning as the result of someone else kingmaking much.

I don't enjoy losing as the result of someone else kingmaking a lot more...
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Awaclus

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2013, 08:20:20 pm »
0

I think being the kingmaker is still the worst position.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 08:21:20 pm »
0

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

Im not quite sure what your saying the other player should do here?
Discard his winning turn and let you have a turn at winning?
You both were aiming for the same thing...he just got there first

You say its how you play the game, but you were playing in the same way as your opponent?
I'm not saying the player SHOULD have done anything differently. I'm just saying why I was frustrated. I would have played differently because I'd rather duke it out and emerge victorious than ride a tidal wave of luck. Just personal preference, I don't mean to be judgmental. If I were in a tournament I would have done as my opponent had done in this case.

We were playing the same way, more or less. He had a few more markets than I did. I had a few more KC's than he did. We played equally well and progressed at a more or less equal rate, what it came down to was he drew two KC's and some markets, which led to more markets and bridges.

Whereas, I drew two KC's and some coppers. And there was no trashing available in that game.

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Awaclus

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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2013, 08:23:56 pm »
0

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

Im not quite sure what your saying the other player should do here?
Discard his winning turn and let you have a turn at winning?
You both were aiming for the same thing...he just got there first

You say its how you play the game, but you were playing in the same way as your opponent?
I'm not saying the player SHOULD have done anything differently. I'm just saying why I was frustrated. I would have played differently because I'd rather duke it out and emerge victorious than ride a tidal wave of luck.
I personally would consider that offensive if it was apparent that you were doing it on purpose.
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Re: Is there a "good" and "bad" way to Win in Dominion?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2013, 08:38:57 pm »
+5

Three-piling can be interesting. I think when everyone sees a three-pile ending coming (at least they should see it) then one can't be faulted for pursuing a strategy in line with that inevitable outcome.

However, some people drain three piles gratuitously, this is a very different thing. For example, today my opponent and I had similar decks. We both had a lot of KCs and markets and bridges. I drew two KCs and some coppers he drew two KC's and some markets and bridges. He ended the game then and there by buying 7 wishing wells. It's one thing to benefit from luck, it's another to exploit that luck to the fullest

Im not quite sure what your saying the other player should do here?
Discard his winning turn and let you have a turn at winning?
You both were aiming for the same thing...he just got there first

You say its how you play the game, but you were playing in the same way as your opponent?
I'm not saying the player SHOULD have done anything differently. I'm just saying why I was frustrated. I would have played differently because I'd rather duke it out and emerge victorious than ride a tidal wave of luck. Just personal preference, I don't mean to be judgmental. If I were in a tournament I would have done as my opponent had done in this case.

We were playing the same way, more or less. He had a few more markets than I did. I had a few more KC's than he did. We played equally well and progressed at a more or less equal rate, what it came down to was he drew two KC's and some markets, which led to more markets and bridges.

Whereas, I drew two KC's and some coppers. And there was no trashing available in that game.

Sorry, im still confused.

You built a deck thats aiming for a KC KC megaturn, but you wouldn t do the mega turn if it came up?
Why build the deck that way?
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