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[yuma]

I am not going to go around telling people who to target, but I think a far, far better way to do this, instead of lynching PPS, is to have him be a potential cop target tonight.

1. if he is targeted we learned he is town and that TA is town 100% at the same time.
2. if he is NKed... yes we lose that cop data (from whoever copped him), but we learn that TA is town 100% of the time and we don't lose a cop from a different night as scum targeted PPS and not another cop.
3. if he is scum, he is outed and we can then decide what to do with TA... He is probably still town, but at least we can think about it.

Now that is a decent idea, but at the moment, we are two Cops down. It's easily possible that we don't get another investigation result. And if we don't, and take TA/pps to some LyLo situation because we think they might still get investigated, what then?

If you are so suspicious of PPS's claim that he is a cop... then why are you so sure that we are two cops down? If you think PPS is scum, then we should only be one cop down.

this post to me is raising a giant red flag! It seems to me that cognitively you believe PPS's claim, but that you want to lynch him anyways (because you want that mislynch w/o responsibility because you are just "doing it for information for TA")

I sitll need to look you over, but you might have just jumped to the top of my suspicions with this post despite TA's town read on you.

And again, I am not saying give TA and PPS a pass. But rather lynch them if you think they are scummy. I don't think they are scummy and won't lynch them just for info.

[pingpongsam]

Damn, yuma, that is a nice catch. The discrepancy in being suspicious of me and then clearly enunciating the notion that we are in fact 2 cops down is highly suspect.

Vote: faust

[yuma]

Faust:

- had a different take on the theory; also very pro-no-lynch (again, not indicative of alignment, but noting it) in early discussion
- had the early jump on me that I found suspicious early
- I actually think he did a good job of voting and questioning people throughout early day1 while most everyone was talking theory and he was talking theory himself. votes on me and pps and no-lynch of course
- moves to a teproc vote, primarily for defending eevee
- defends against an ahoppy lynch quite aggressively
- ends up voting chairs in a vote that I don't like, but is very similar to what got faust lynched in Game of Thrones day1 (he was town) if I remember correctly... throwing down a vote on someone who wasn't going to get lynched and then leaving for the day (although he did end up coming back, he just said he was leaving for the day)... so I don't know what to say about that...
- came back, voted for teproc

Day2
- he has been significantly more absent during day2.
- ends up seeing robz scummy on the argument between the two of us
- suggests an ahoppy lynch... it appears primarily for information to analyze from day1? What about information to analyze from day2 faust? He doesn't really explain if he has a scum read on ahoppy... in fact it is a pretty solid reversal from his read on day1.
- another post about wanting to know alignments of yuma, robz and ahoppy.. "which one to lynch" so again, I am trying to figure out why he is so obsessed with learning alignment and not as interested in lynching scum....
- Ok... so here he says that he is not convinced by the case made on PPS from Jimmm. So I take it that he doesn't have a scum read on PPS at this point?
- instead he is far, far more interested in lynch ahoppy to the point that he is demaning people explain why they aren't voting for him....
- immediately after PPS claims he votes for PPS. Still just for information it appears.
- L-1's PPS and then gets indignant when people want to unvote...
- then this post I mentioned before about him believing two cops are used up, but still wanting to lynch PPS seems like a difference in cognition.

Summary:

I do agree that faust is playing aggressively. TA has said that he thinks faust is town because of this. I don't necessarily find faust scummy for playing aggressively, nor do I find him townie. I think that just goes along more with personality (as we have seen him do some rather "wild" things before as both alignments). I don't abide by the whole "scum will play extremely crazy just to avoid a mislynch" theory but I don't think faust is playing extremely crazy...

Instead I think he is much more in the middle ground for most of the game. He has taken some strong approaches, but in terms of scum hunting he has kinda remained in the background and only just barely started to take a very active role day2. There have been some scummy things he has done. The latest one I think the most egregious.

I would be willing to vote for him. I don't know if I would be more willing to vote here over eevee or arch or robz, but I think I would be willing.

[Twistedarcher]

Looking back at Ahoppy, it's just so strange that he defended Eevee so strongly, when going into my case, he had a town read on me and a null read on Eevee...

[Eevee]

internet on-air, wippii!

yuma, I don't think I missed a step. the step where I assessed something felt fishy was when you
both being town got bumped to a lower probability. the fight didn't seem like something you two would have as town, so.

I strongly disagree with faust, even with my bias of not reading TA particularly towny before, I'm willing to treat him as town for the town being. PPS was a townread for me even before (but if
they aren't town-town, I think PPS scum TA town is the second most likely).

meh, yuma is impossible to lynch, because he makes sure to stay active and doesn't slip in obvious ways, so there is always someone scummier and whenever yuma gets voted, he vehemently attacks the voter demanding better, more accurate reasons. i don't know who else I'd like to lynch, faust's radical ideas are not correct in my eyes but I don't think they are scummy,
ahoppy I think has mostly been hisself (hard to read for me).
I guess I could get behind archetype as well, but I've been wrong about him so often in the past, I'm kind of disheartened.

vote: yuma
PoE, hasn't given a town vibe in any of the numerous issues he has been a part of, strong  attacks against everyone who suspects him, the weird debacle with robz where I think robz felt more genuine

[Twistedarcher]

Eevee, what about Yuma's play is scummy? I don't see many reasons in there. It says that scum!Yuma is hard to lynch but you haven't said why you think he's scum yuma in that post.

[Twistedarcher]

FWIW, I think Yuma would be an excellent cop target

[Eevee]

Eevee, what about Yuma's play is scummy? I don't see many reasons in there. It says that scum!Yuma is hard to lynch but you haven't said why you think he's scum yuma in that post.

he often has seemed very towny at this point already, and that hasn't happened here. something felt off in the argument with robz, and robz felt sincere to me even if I think I should always be super paranoid of him when he reads me as town. this is just my impression, but I feel yuma is going against anyone who suspects him extra hard in this game.

it's way less towny of yuma to not exhibit in classic scummy voting or behavior patterns. lack of those is not really evidence of his towniness if he never
shows them when he is scum.

[yuma]

internet on-air, wippii!

yuma, I don't think I missed a step. the step where I assessed something felt fishy was when you
both being town got bumped to a lower probability. the fight didn't seem like something you two would have as town, so.

But you didn't explain why that is. You unilaterally said that it was "fishy" and left it at that and then removed Robz and were left with me.

meh, yuma is impossible to lynch, because he makes sure to stay active and doesn't slip in obvious ways, so there is always someone scummier and whenever yuma gets voted, he vehemently attacks the voter demanding better, more accurate reasons. i don't know who else I'd like to lynch, faust's radical ideas are not correct in my eyes but I don't think they are scummy

I see nothing wrong with demanding reasons for why people are voting for me. I don't think I vehemently attacks the voter. but I demand accountability. Yes, I do this as both town and mafia and see absolutely no problem with it at all... Especially as town I want that person to back up what they are saying and not be left off the hook for accusing someone who is town (me!). Once I understand their reasons I can look and see if a town player might think along those lines or if I feel that player is mafia trying to get me mislynched. So you can question that part I guess. But I don't think you can question my insistence that reasoning is provided...

PoE, hasn't given a town vibe in any of the numerous issues he has been a part of, strong  attacks against everyone who suspects him, the weird debacle with robz where I think robz felt more genuine

So because I don't have a town vibe does that mean I have a scum vibe? Or is it that you just can't read me? Strong attacks again I think is wrong... I press people for accountability, especially when these votes are accompanied with "gut reads" or "vibe feelings" or just plain nothing... I don't think the robz/yuma interaction is a debacle. Why use that wording? It is still very possible that Robz is scum here... so it isn't a debacle, at least not yet it isn't... And ok, you feel robz is more genuine... but that doesn't mean I am scum. It means you decided one of us is scum or a mislynch target beforehand and then settled on me.

[yuma]

Yuma always aggressively attacks people suspecting him for bad reasons, that's why he never gets lynched. Not all cases are slam dunk affairs though, I think "came off scummier in the weird exchange with Robz, hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings" is a fine enough reason to vote.

In fact, Vote: yuma and see what happens.

Apparently I missed this before... Can you elaborate on the "came off scummier" part of this post? As well as the "hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings."

To elaborate on above... I don't think your above post answered these questions of mine. They were just rephrased your statements in different words...

[Twistedarcher]

Eevee, you say you are PoEing into voting Yuma...can you explain this PoE? Cause we haven't caught any scum yet and besides me/PPS don't have any IC types..

[Twistedarcher]

I also don't like the inference that Yuma is scum because he came off scummier than Robz (which I do agree with), it implies that there's definitely scum in Yuma/Robz, which I am thinking isn't the case.

[Twistedarcher]

Yuma, I have enough doubts about Faust that I don't want to lynch him today, and I think he's been more of an asset, if town, than Ahoppy/Eevee/Archetype is. I think we should lynch in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype...

[Twistedarcher]

Also, would love for Jimmm to start posting more

[Eevee]

If I expect town yuma to seem towny, then you seeming null is scummy because the times you were town, I'd often have gotten a different impression.

No, I don't have any specific examples, you are not the kind of player that falls into the obvious pitfalls as scum nor am I the kind of player that's good at figuring out scummy voting patterns. I actually think a lot of the contradictionary stuff we lynch people over is in reality quite null, but creating meaningful interactions to help with clutch end game decisions is an important function of early lynches so that's ultimately ok.

Long story short, no, I'm not able to word my suspicion on you eloquently. My process was thinking through the player list (starting from bigger wagons) and eliminating people I don't think we should lynch. I was left with a preference order of something like yuma - archetype - chairs - ahoppy - scott - faust - jimm - robz - pps - ta.

[Twistedarcher]

I really just want to lynch Eevee..

[Eevee]

of the too five of my list, yuma is the only player I don't traditionally view as scummy. I have a long history of always thinking yuma is towny and archetype is scummy,so if I view them both as suspicious without being able to put a finger on it, I'm going to support lynching yuma.

all this being said, my reads are incredibly foggy in this game, I don't know why but apart from TA's towniness (that totally caught me off guard, up until pps's claim I suspected him), I really don't have much on any of my reads, town or scum.

[Twistedarcher]

Do you traditionally view Scott and Ahoppy as scummy? When was this?

[Eevee]

Do you traditionally view Scott and Ahoppy as scummy? When was this?

I've had a scumread on Ahoppy in every game we've ever played and he has been town every time. I realized this in MC after they claimed with Voltaire, his style just hits the spot for my scum model, him posting rarely but long is just something that always leaves me an impression he is avoiding heated interactive back and forths and making safe comments when issues are already mostly resolved even though in reality it's just a timezone/availability thing.

Scott I obviously haven't played with before, and I'll admit the fact that others have such strong town reads on him might be clouding my judgement. Still, generally new players have often played super towny in their first games, usually by doing things that are traditionally thought of as so scummy no real scum would ever really do them. fwiw, I had this same thought about ichimaru in dw2 (although that read was way stronger, my general grip for that game was much better) and he turned up scum.

[yuma]

vote: eevee

based off my points. based slightly off sheeping the IC and based off this continued idea that I am scum but not being willing or able to back any of it up.

also, eevee I don't buy this stuff about ahoppy. I believe Ahoppy has only played two games previously. Yes, one you may have found him scummy (MC), but the other was Mean Girls. You were scum in that game so couldn't have found him scummy.... so I don't think that is enough of a data pool (one game) for you to say that you have a consistent scummy read on him

[yuma]

Yuma, I have enough doubts about Faust that I don't want to lynch him today, and I think he's been more of an asset, if town, than Ahoppy/Eevee/Archetype is. I think we should lynch in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype...

Alright, I would still like to see people's thoughts on the cop thing I highlighted before, but I am pretty much in between on eevee or faust (or Robz as I have mentioned like a million times now).

[Eevee]

well, even as scum i do try to "suspect" people i'd suspect as town and i believe this is ahoppy's fourth game, not like i went back to check though.

I do believe I backed it up sufficiently, you haven't had issues like this with my playing style earlier when my vote didn't land on you.

but yea, you are obviously within your rights to vote for me, but it does feel like another attempt to attack/discredit anyone who voices suspicion on you.

[yuma]

He also played RMM8. But I have no idea what happened in that game... let me look and see... ok, eevee did have a scum read on ahoppy in RMM8. so that adds somewhat to the data pool.

[yuma]

If I expect town yuma to seem towny, then you seeming null is scummy because the times you were town, I'd often have gotten a different impression.

Ok, let me ask the question this way then? What am I not doing in this game that made you think I was town in previous games where I was town? I feel like my play style here is consistent with other games (I mean I know I am town, so I know that I am not faking it...) although I have always tried to try new things so that I don't fall behind in the ever changing dynamic between town and mafia (something you praised me for as scum in Game of Thrones....)

[pingpongsam]

Quick phone update. At the hospital where my wife just got admitted with double pneumonia which most would say is bad news but is way better than the "we don't know so wait it out" we got from 2 doctors over 10 days. It remains to be seen how this impacts my availability. I mean a lot of my time was spent caring for someone who for all intents was dying.