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[Witherweaver]

I think sports with fouls are kind of weird.  It's like "Hey, you're not allowed to do this.  But of course it's a good idea to do it sometimes, so go ahead and do it, we'll just penalize you after."  You get situations like Basketball and Soccer where fouling can be better than not fouling. 

I guess it's just part of those games (probably a phenomenon of contact sports).  In volleyball, for instance, you don't have those kinds of things; it's never beneficial to do something illegal (except perhaps for some edge case like arguing with the ref and getting a yellow/red card to influence the ref, your team, or the other team.. but that's more psychological).

[theory]

The real problem was that the punishment didn't match the crime.  There's no provision in FIFA like in the NFL that allows the referee to award points in cases of blatant unfairness.  This is simply a case of arbitrage where the punishment doesn't match the crime, and given that same situation I bet every professional player in the world would do what Suarez did.

It's different than what Henry did because Henry's crime was not confessing.  There was no mismatch of punishment and crime; he just didn't get any punishment at all.

[ipofanes]

Yes, in football it is so deeply ingrained that to score one point, you have to get the ball between those posts. No point gratification scheme for different achievements like in basketball or rugby. Therefore, the very idea that a point can be awarded for anything else, such as excessively unfair behaviour of opponent, sounds just disgusting.

One feeble attempt is to issue punishment that don't really have to do with the crime, such as issuing a red card to the field player who just cleared a ball with his hands from the goal line in the last minute of the game. This gives absolutely no edge for the violated team but for the teams that will play the next couple of games with the perpetrator excluded.

[theory]

I mean what if the goalie was out of the net, the ball is heading towards the goal, it's 100% certain to go in, and a fan runs on the field and kicks the ball away?  Do you award the goal?

[ipofanes]

No.

Never.

[Joseph2302]

The real problem was that the punishment didn't match the crime.  There's no provision in FIFA like in the NFL that allows the referee to award points in cases of blatant unfairness.

Yes, it's true in Rugby Union too (maybe also Rugby League), they can award a penalty try if someone cheats to stop the opposition scoring a try (for those that don't know, a try is like a touchdown in NFL, except you actually have to put the ball down in the "endzone"). They should just have that in football, unlike a penalty kick, which can be missed. Suarez against Ghana for instance was very happy to be sent off, this should never be the case, cheating should always be condemned as wrong, and should therefore be punished like that.

[greatexpectations]

I mean what if the goalie was out of the net, the ball is heading towards the goal, it's 100% certain to go in, and a fan runs on the field and kicks the ball away?  Do you award the goal?

what about if a beachball on the field deflects an easy shot right at the keeper into the goal? do you still award the goal?

[2.71828.....]

Messi is just so good.  Terrific save by the Nigerian keeper from that first free kick, but then there was nothing he could do on the second.  Both quality free kicks from Messi

[theory]

I mean what if the goalie was out of the net, the ball is heading towards the goal, it's 100% certain to go in, and a fan runs on the field and kicks the ball away?  Do you award the goal?

what about if a beachball on the field deflects an easy shot right at the keeper into the goal? do you still award the goal?

That stood?  Are you joking me? 

[Witherweaver]

I mean what if the goalie was out of the net, the ball is heading towards the goal, it's 100% certain to go in, and a fan runs on the field and kicks the ball away?  Do you award the goal?

what about if a beachball on the field deflects an easy shot right at the keeper into the goal? do you still award the goal?

That stood?  Are you joking me?

This one was allowed, too:

[Teproc]

Regarding Henry and Suarez :

Henry's crim was not confessing ? I heard that a lot when it happened and it's beyond ridiculous. Of course he's not going to confess during the match, who would ever do that ? He should have been suspended (and might have been, I honestly don't remember), but confessing was never an option... Even if he had confessed, there's nothing the referee could have done. They just don't go back on their decision, ever.

ash, I don't think you understood what I meant about Suarez's hand. If a french player had done that in the World Cup, sure I would have cheered. But I wouldn't have thought it was a good thing for the game either. I don't think the way we qualified for the 2010 World Cup (Henry's hand) was good for football. It was good for us, and I was happy we qualified, but I would rather it have happened otherwise (not sure about my grammar there, but oh well).

Basically I understand why Suarez did what he did, and I don't blame him for it, but I regret that it can happen.

Also Suarez is generally an asshole and Uruguay is a team that plays awful, awful football that is boring to watch. So I was really sad that Ghana got eliminated on that, when Ghana is an awesome team (as any American would know :p).

And then this is an entirely different conversation than Suarez biting someone, which is flat-out unacceptable and should be punished by much more than 2 matches.

[Davio]

Yes, in football it is so deeply ingrained that to score one point, you have to get the ball between those posts. No point gratification scheme for different achievements like in basketball or rugby. Therefore, the very idea that a point can be awarded for anything else, such as excessively unfair behaviour of opponent, sounds just disgusting.

One feeble attempt is to issue punishment that don't really have to do with the crime, such as issuing a red card to the field player who just cleared a ball with his hands from the goal line in the last minute of the game. This gives absolutely no edge for the violated team but for the teams that will play the next couple of games with the perpetrator excluded.

I wonder if football would be more entertaining with achievements...

For instance:
Scoring the most goals - 3 points
Most possession - 1 point
Most attempts - 1 point
Most attempts on goal - 1 point
Least fouls committed - 1 point

Etc...

This way you could win without scoring the most goals!

[greatexpectations]

And then this is an entirely different conversation than Suarez biting someone, which is flat-out unacceptable and should be punished by much more than 2 matches.

what the proper length of the ban should be is actually a pretty interesting discussion in itself. personally i can understand and agree with the justification for both a standard 2 match ban as well as the heavy 2 year ban. on the one hand it is violent behavior with no apparent instigation and he has a past record of biting (as well as some other dirty play) so he should receive heavy punishment. on the other hand, all three bites combined have probably caused less physical damage than say the yellow card tackle suarez received from mirallas earlier this year so a 2 match ban for violent play could suffice. biting is just such a weird behavior that you don't have a solid precedent for it.

[ashersky]

Okay, so South Korea needs to defeat Belgium and Algeria needs to defeat Russia; the goal differences in those two games need to give Algeria a 2 goal advantage.

Then, if the USA somehow slide into the 2nd stage, they can play group H winners Algeria instead of Belgium!

[ashersky]

And then this is an entirely different conversation than Suarez biting someone, which is flat-out unacceptable and should be punished by much more than 2 matches.

I think this is the crux.

People hate Suarez for a lot of reasons.  He seems to be a terrible person.  He bites people.  He plays dirty.  He plays for Liverpool.

Those all seem like "fair" reasons to not be a fan of his.  There are great reasons in there for which Suarez should be suspended from playing the game.  Or forced to do community service.  Or whatever.

I am not arguing against any of that.

I only argue on his behalf in regard to the singular defining moment of his career (for me), the glorious play in extra time against Ghana in 2010.  I've had this discussion many times -- he broke a rule and was punished for it, per the rules of the game.  There's nothing else to be said against it.  You can complain that the rules aren't strict enough or the punishment needs to be harsher, but that's an academic discussion for FIFA.

Suarez prolonged the dreams of an entire nation by sacrificing his own playing time on the world's biggest stage in the world's biggest sporting tournament.  I want that type of player on the USMNT.  I want it on my favorite baseball/soccer/rugby team.

I don't want a dude who bites, or a keeper who hurts strikers, or whatever other examples are being used.  That's not what I'm defending.

[Teproc]

I wonder if football would be more entertaining with achievements...

For instance:
Scoring the most goals - 3 points
Most possession - 1 point
Most attempts - 1 point
Most attempts on goal - 1 point
Least fouls committed - 1 point

Etc...

This way you could win without scoring the most goals!

I think the problem with this is that what makes footbal exciting is actually the scarcity of scoring opportunities. That' why Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are huge stars. That's why watching a game that your team is playing in so stressful and great at the same time : anything could happen at any point, even though it generally doesn't.

By the way, that France Ecuador match was boring, and we didn't even win despite a generous referee. Oh well, we'll have to do better against Nigeria but at least we're qualified. Also, yay, Switzerland !

[ashersky]

I wish Barthez was still on the team.  He was my favorite player for a long time.

[Davio]

I wish Barthez was still on the team.  He was my favorite player for a long time.

Also, my favorite DJ.

[soulnet]

Then, if the USA somehow slide into the 2nd stage, they can play group H winners Algeria instead of Belgium!

Well, you should concentrate on the first now. Exciting finish. BTW, I had never realized before how much US players run.

[jonts26]

USA! USA! USA!

[Polk5440]

I just realized GokoDom has a better tournament structure than the World Cup.

[2.71828.....]

Other than Ghana drawing Germany (which turned out inconsequential) I was spot on here:

As far as the US goes: I think we need to hope Germany sweeps the group, and we beat Ghana and tie Portugal. Then either Ghana beats Portugal and we advance, or it comes down to goal differentials. Obviously we want to get points off Germany, but that is doubtful. Really, if any team gets points off Germany I think it is likely that we see that team advance.

I haven't given much thought to the other groups yet.

[Witherweaver]

Seems relevant:

http://imgur.com/gallery/fB2h8Pq

[Teproc]

I just realized GokoDom has a better tournament structure than the World Cup.

Meh, I like he World Cup structure, it's exciting. Very few inconsequential matches. It's not supposed to actually reward the best team overall (well, kinda, but not really), it's supposed to be fun.

Also, congrats guys !

[Witherweaver]

I just realized GokoDom has a better tournament structure than the World Cup.

Meh, I like he World Cup structure, it's exciting. Very few inconsequential matches. It's not supposed to actually reward the best team overall (well, kinda, but not really), it's supposed to be fun.

Also, congrats guys !

Isn't it a very standard tournament structure?  Teams broken up into groups, top finishers of the group move on to elimination rounds.  At least most volleyball tournaments work this way.