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[-Stef-]

This was a really bizarre game. We both started building a bit, until I grabbed a Saboteur.
Then he copied, I wanted another, he wanted another, some of them go down, and before you know it Saboteur is the first pile to run.
And then I managed to squeak out a win after grabbing that other $5 powerhouse: explorer 

Maybe some slight improvements possible, but I can't really fault either player for their actions.

First time for everything.

[KingZog3]

I would have gone Explorer first. Maybe just Explorer+BM? There isn't much on this board, but the Silvers from Explorer would pretty much defend against Saboteur. Add a monument for some vp chips too. I think Saboteur will kill engines, since there's no way to really defend. It'll hit all your components.

[ftl]

Anything BM-like would die horribly to Noble Brigand spam. You can't rely on keeping your Silvers and Golds with it around.

[KingZog3]

True, I wasn't considering it.

[Davio]

Besides, Apprentice allows for some pseudo-draw, maybe with the Silvers from Explorer?
Although that seems really convoluted.

[DG]

It's a kingdom that you could win with a 5 card deck.

edit- actually the noble brigand can always give you a fatal sixth card.

[dondon151]

I would have gone Explorer first. Maybe just Explorer+BM? There isn't much on this board, but the Silvers from Explorer would pretty much defend against Saboteur. Add a monument for some vp chips too. I think Saboteur will kill engines, since there's no way to really defend. It'll hit all your components.

Nonsense. I guarantee that in the Explorer-BM matchup, the opponent playing Sab will hit you at least once, if not more, every turn. With a sufficiently trim deck, one could just go on forever (well, until piles run out) with some combination of Monument and Sab every turn.

[Robz888]

I think I would mostly ignore Sab and just keep buying Minstrels, Bandit Campus, and Monuments. Lots of each. When they get hit, I turn them into Vagrants, and we look toward a three-pile. A bunch of Saboteurs will hurt me, but I accumulate Monument points while he doesn't. And he can be buying like tons of points with just Saboteurs.

[sudgy]

I think I would mostly ignore Sab and just keep buying Minstrels, Bandit Campus, and Monuments. Lots of each. When they get hit, I turn them into Vagrants, and we look toward a three-pile. A bunch of Saboteurs will hurt me, but I accumulate Monument points while he doesn't. And he can be buying like tons of points with just Saboteurs.

I am sitting here almost laughing wondering what a Bandit Campus would be like...

[soulnet]

I am sitting here almost laughing wondering what a Bandit Campus would be like...

Almost any major university's Economy school?

[-Stef-]

This is a beautiful set, really. I've given it some more thought and no simple approach whatsoever works.

I would have gone Explorer first. Maybe just Explorer+BM? There isn't much on this board, but the Silvers from Explorer would pretty much defend against Saboteur. Add a monument for some vp chips too. I think Saboteur will kill engines, since there's no way to really defend. It'll hit all your components.

You would lose to the decks we were building. Wandering Minstrels, Monuments, and an Apprentice to do some cleaning. I don't buy any Saboteur against this deck. If the apprentice ever runs out of fuel I could add a noble brigand but that's not even necessary. You just can't buy enough provinces to fight the ever going 3-4 points a turn from the monuments. If you buy a Saboteur in your BM deck, I just ignore it and re-buy lost components. You can't play it frequently anyway.

I think I would mostly ignore Sab and just keep buying Minstrels, Bandit Campus, and Monuments. Lots of each. When they get hit, I turn them into Vagrants, and we look toward a three-pile. A bunch of Saboteurs will hurt me, but I accumulate Monument points while he doesn't. And he can be buying like tons of points with just Saboteurs.

Again I would do what we were doing in the actual game. But now I add exactly 1 Saboteur. Then I just keep buying wandering minstrels and monuments again. Basically we're playing the same deck, but you're steadily losing components.

Besides, Apprentice allows for some pseudo-draw, maybe with the Silvers from Explorer?
Although that seems really convoluted.

Silvers from Explorer can come in handy, but if I'm fighting BM I'd rather use the silvers from Noble Brigand.

It's a kingdom that you could win with a 5 card deck.

edit- actually the noble brigand can always give you a fatal sixth card.

What 5 cards were you referring to? I guess you could try with a village, two monuments and an Apprentice. You can trash the incoming copper and continue to score 2 points/turn. But 2 points isn't really that much and you can't quickly switch to something that punishes a fat deck with green cards.

[soulnet]

I think I would mostly ignore Sab and just keep buying Minstrels, Bandit Campus, and Monuments. Lots of each. When they get hit, I turn them into Vagrants, and we look toward a three-pile. A bunch of Saboteurs will hurt me, but I accumulate Monument points while he doesn't. And he can be buying like tons of points with just Saboteurs.

Again I would do what we were doing in the actual game. But now I add exactly 1 Saboteur. Then I just keep buying wandering minstrels and monuments again. Basically we're playing the same deck, but you're steadily losing components.

I would say that +Buy would really help. There is no +Buy here, but Saboteur is a relative pseudo-+Buy, because in some sense it is -Buy for the opponent.

With the same kind of Analysis, Explorer helps because it gives pseudo +Buy, and even if Silvers is not what you want, it will protect against Sab attacks, at least a couple of times, saving some important component.

[DG]

To be left with a useful five card deck your opponent would need to trash your apprentice but that can happen. Whenever an opponent has been sleepy and let me get down to a 5 card working deck, he's typically resigned without full thought of whether he could still win.

[soulnet]

With a 6-card deck, you can buy back whatever Sab hits until it hits Apprentice and then you have the 5-card deck. You are going to draw the 6th card if its still there in your turn anyway.

[AJD]

I think I would mostly ignore Sab and just keep buying Minstrels, Bandit Campus, and Monuments. Lots of each. When they get hit, I turn them into Vagrants, and we look toward a three-pile. A bunch of Saboteurs will hurt me, but I accumulate Monument points while he doesn't. And he can be buying like tons of points with just Saboteurs.

I am sitting here almost laughing wondering what a Bandit Campus would be like...

+2 Actions
Gain a Treasure costing up to $5.
When you buy this, each other player reveals the top two cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, and discards the rest. You gain the trashed cards

[blueblimp]

Explorer+Apprentice spends 1 action to increase hand-size by 1. (Explorer replaces itself with a Silver. Apprentice draws 3 but reduces hand-size by 2 in the process.) That's the same as a Moat does, except it takes two $5s instead of one $2. Not too exciting.

[Davio]

If you can get a Gold you increase your handsize by 4.

[scott_pilgrim]

Silvers from Explorer can come in handy

I see what you did there.