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[toaster]

I played an interesting game recently and thought it would make good fodder for discussion.  The board was:

Bureaucrat
Coppersmith
Explorer
Loan
Mint
Noble Brigand
Pirate Ship
Rabble
Steward
Talisman

As you can see, this set featured no non-terminal actions, Pirate Ship, and readily available trashing.  This was the resulting game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/07/game-20111107-223153-78522d04.html

We both bought Pirate Ships and a Loan/Steward...trying to hit our opponent's treasure while trashing our own.  By about turn 14, we'd reached a point where both of us had 5 or fewer cards in deck, no treasure, and Pirate Ships with only 2 tokens on them.  Once we hit this state, we both fumbled around for a bit, but eventually my opponent tried to grab some treasure and build up his deck from there.  I used his move to beef up my Pirate Ship a bit, which then allowed me to purchase enough Duchies to barely escape with the win.

I don't think I played this game particularly well, but the question that the game raised for me was: were we in a stalemate around turn 14 or so?  That is, had we reached a point where the first player to try to extend their deck beyond 5 cards would most likely lose, and thus the best move was for both player to do nothing?

It seems possible that we had reached that state in this game, but I'd love to hear from others:

1.  Can you find a winning strategy that breaks the stalemate?
2.  Was there an alternate strategy on the board that you think would've avoided the stalemate scenario in the first place?

[WanderingWinder]

Well, 2 is the more important question, with the answer probably being yes - some form of steward+money or Rabble + Money or even maybe Bureaucrat and money should probably do decently well against the ships, which are generally pretty weak, particularly without any real support.
But 1 is the easier question to answer: yeah, buy a copper and start ramping up. Buy duchy>PS>silver>estate (you want to buy copper if the total money production in your deck falls under $3 though, and you don't want too many PS without anything else in your deck). Or maybe it's even better to just start grabbing more money, like lots of silvers and golds and stuff, like Gold>duchy>PS>Silver, with a little wiggle room 'cause you have to react to what your opponent does.

[toaster]

You may be right about the overall strategy, but I don't think the stalemate break actually works.  The problem is that if your opponent waits you out,  they will get to use a Pirate Ship on you every turn, increasing the effectiveness of it while yours remains stuck at 2.  Without the ability to consistently get to 5, I don't see how you win.

As for the overall strategy....I'd have to play it out.  While Pirate Ship alone is usually weak, the ample trashing options in this set make it pretty easy to get a PS every turn, and there aren't great engine opportunities to outrun it as one usually would.

[Epoch]

There are plenty of good solid stalemate breaks there.  Let's see, your turn 13: you had a 4 card deck of 2 Stewards, 2 Pirate Ships.  Your opponent had no draw pile.  Your correct move was:

Steward: Trash either Steward x1, PS x1 or PS x2, probably the former.
Buy: Copper.

You now have a 3 card deck: Steward, Copper, PS.  You are immune to Pirate Shippery, since you have no draw pile.

Next turn: Steward or PS for +$2.  Play Copper, buy Silver.

Your deck is now, Steward, Copper, PS, Silver.  Still immune to Pirate Shippery.

Next turn:  Buy another Silver.  You can attack your opponent with PS if he's trying to get out of the hole, here, since you've got an action free.

Your deck is now Steward, Copper, PS, Silver x2.  Still immune to Pirate Shippery.

If your opponent is waiting and not doing anything here, I think that the right answer is now "Steward: trash Copper & Pirate Ship, play Silver x2, buy Bureaucrat."

At that point, you've got a deck which is Steward, Bureaucrat, Silverx2.

Next turn, you Bureaucrat, and then buy another Silver.  When you're reliably gaining 2 better-than-Copper treasures per turn, your opponent is pretty screwed (and you'll be doing that pretty reliably until your deck reaches a large enough size that Bureaucrat is unlikely to be in your hand).  He can PS to attack you, but you'll still be gaining Silvers all told.  If he converts to trying to use his PS for money, you increase your Treasure stockpile still further.

Alternately, if that concept of that gives you hives, once you've got the Steward & 2 Silvers and a small deck, you can buy a Mint, trashing your Silvers, and then, keeping your deck size below 5, get a Gold.  Trash your Silvers and Mint up a deck that's Steward, Mint, Goldx3, and then do the same plan as before, except instead of Bureaucrating Silver, you Mint Gold.

[Jorbles]

What if you just bought Estates/Stewards/Pirate Ships and end the game on piles? It's not a fun or quick way to end the game, but you have enough money in your deck to buy Estates at this point and buying more Stewards and Pirate Ships would allow you to continue it.

[Epoch]

Oh, you can also do something like build up a Steward/Talismanx4 deck and then buy Silver (5 of them).  At that point, your deck is Steward, Talisman x4, Silver x5.  Your opponent presumably Pirate Ships you and destroys one Talisman or Silver and you've got enough Treasure to race into Duchies at that point, and by the time your opponent has Pirate Shipped enough to buy Duchies of his own, he's at an insurmountable disadvantage on the Duchies race.

Or you could buy down the Talisman pile and something else -- Stewards?  Whatever.  Trashing as you go to keep your deck pirate-ship immune.  And then explode the Estates, buying 5 of them in the first go with your Talismans, and then rush to finish that pile before your opponent can build his Pirate Ships up enough to buy Duchies.


EDIT:  Actually, this would be completely hilarious.  So, you trash down to Steward, Silverx2 or whatever, and buy a Talisman.  Then another Talisman (using just your Silvers, so you don't get 2 Talismans).  You have a 5 card deck of Steward, Silver, Silver, Talisman, Talisman.  Trash your two Silvers.  Play Steward for $2, and two Talismans.  Buy a Talisman -- you get an extra 2 of them.  So now your deck is Steward, Talisman x5.  Your opponent presumably PS's a Talisman.

Next turn, you play Talisman x4 and buy Talisman, buying out the rest of the pile.  Your deck is now Steward, Talisman x9.  Your opponent presumably PS's, eating one Talisman.  You either have a hand of 5xTalisman, or, even better, Steward, Talisman x4.  If the latter, you play the Steward for +2 cards, getting Talisman x6.  You buy an Estate, and get 5 or 6 extra Estates.  Your opponent at this point still doesn't have a PS capable of buying Duchies -- he has to attack again, and he might even miss now that your deck has a bunch of Estates in it (and, yet better, your draw pile has the Estates concentrated in it, with your hand being mostly Talismans (and maybe a Steward).

Next turn, you start rushing down whatever the next lowest <4 cost pile is lowest, probably Stewards, with the intent to end the game as rapidly as possible.

I don't know that this is winning, but it would be hilarious.

[Razzishi]

Talisman does not trigger on VP cards.

[WanderingWinder]

Epoch is totally right and has built a better stalemate break than I did. But even if you didn't have stewards (which I totally neglected)... the thing is, with a 6 card deck, there's only a 16.666666% chance that he'll actually get to HIT you with PS. You can't play scared. Sure there's a chance you draw horrible luck and he hits you every time, but to get to $5 that's... less than a half a percent chance. Man, give me a 99.5% chance any day of the week. 'cause the thing is, if your opponent doesn't hit, he isn't. doing. anything. In the game, I'm pretty sure your opponent's biggest problem was that he wimped out after you nailed one gold. If he would have continued to apply pressure, I think he would have been in much better shape.

[Razzishi]

On a slightly more constructive note, I recall the following game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110815-072356-15bc3467.html where I use a small deck to avoid my Treasure from being grabbed by Pirates.  I manage to get down to Festival, Festival, Ghost Ship, Bishop, Province, Gold.  He has no idea which card is in my deck, so attacking me is probably not a great idea.  After two turns of guaranteed Province munching, he decides to attack the one turn the Gold was the last card in my deck.  I still win pretty easily, but I remember being absolutely stunned that the one turn of the past 3 he attacks my 1 card deck it happened to be the Gold.  I tell my opponent what sort of odds were against that play, and he was like "Well, you had such a small deck it seemed like a good shot".  It looks like he couldn't hit $8 that turn and decided buying a $3 and attacking was better than having $7 to spend with 2 buys.

[Epoch]

Talisman does not trigger on VP cards.

Oh, duh.  My bad.  You can tell I don't use Talisman much.

[WanderingWinder]

On a slightly more constructive note, I recall the following game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110815-072356-15bc3467.html where I use a small deck to avoid my Treasure from being grabbed by Pirates.  I manage to get down to Festival, Festival, Ghost Ship, Bishop, Province, Gold.  He has no idea which card is in my deck, so attacking me is probably not a great idea.  After two turns of guaranteed Province munching, he decides to attack the one turn the Gold was the last card in my deck.  I still win pretty easily, but I remember being absolutely stunned that the one turn of the past 3 he attacks my 1 card deck it happened to be the Gold.  I tell my opponent what sort of odds were against that play, and he was like "Well, you had such a small deck it seemed like a good shot".  It looks like he couldn't hit $8 that turn and decided buying a $3 and attacking was better than having $7 to spend with 2 buys.

Probably the right call on his part. If he didn't attack you, did he have ANY chance of winning? I mean, your deck was just gonna steamroll to victory, right?

[DG]

I managed to get my deck down to bazaar, chapel, pirate ship, saboteur, saboteur once. My opponent had saboteurs too so if I'd bought a card I might have seen my pirate ship trashed and my spending gone. If my opponent had the same deck as me then we would have reached a stalemate. In the actual game my opponent could have continued buying high cost cards until 3 piles ran out and he'd have probably won with whatever he'd kept from my attacks, but he didn't have the patience and quit out with an expletive.

[Epoch]

I managed to get my deck down to bazaar, chapel, pirate ship, saboteur, saboteur once. My opponent had saboteurs too so if I'd bought a card I might have seen my pirate ship trashed and my spending gone. If my opponent had the same deck as me then we would have reached a stalemate.

No, same as above.  The correct play there is to trash one (or both) of your existing Saboteurs (you can't play both of them anyway), then buy something to replace it/them.

[DG]

No, same as above.  The correct play there is to trash one (or both) of your existing Saboteurs (you can't play both of them anyway), then buy something to replace it/them.

There actually wasn't time to do that and there wasn't a something better that I could buy. My opponent was buying platinum and colonies so if I didn't use two saboteurs the game was lost anyway. There was a tipping point where the last pirate ships were gone from my opponent's deck or some supply piles emptied. There was a tipping point where my pirate could attack the platinum but the game didn't get there either.

[Epoch]

There actually wasn't time to do that and there wasn't a something better that I could buy. My opponent was buying platinum and colonies so if I didn't use two saboteurs the game was lost anyway. There was a tipping point where the last pirate ships were gone from my opponent's deck or some supply piles emptied. There was a tipping point where my pirate could attack the platinum but the game didn't get there either.

So, first: I think my previous message ends up reading much more snippy than I intended.  Sorry, wasn't trying to be snarky.

Second:  I was more thinking of the hypothetical scenario where you and your opponent had identical decks at that point, than your actual game.

Third:  Obviously, it depends on what else is on the board.

[mathguy]

Yesterday I had an (almost) stalemate.

I played a game where my deck was -
KC, Saboteur, Lab, Steward, copper

and my opponent's was similar.

It got to the point where we didn't want to buy anything  because of the KC-Saboteur. There are ways around it, but if you buy a 6th card and leave your Saboteur or your KC on your deck, things are pretty bad for you. This impasse broke when my opponent got a watchtower and then lost because I saboteured all of his (good) stuff.

[Deadlock39]

I think there are some ways out of this one.  If both players had that exact deck, you could proceed in a couple of ways. 

You can't buy a 6th card because your opponent will KC-Sab something then.  What you can do is KC something else, since your opponent doesn't have any cards to hit anyway.  I see two starts to the path out. 

KC the Lab for actions, then play Saboteur to get it out of hand, and use the Steward to trash your Copper.  Next turn KC Steward and buy a Gold.  I'm not sure where to go from there, but it is a start.

The other option is to trash both the Lab and the Copper with the Steward.  Then KC-Steward for a Gold.  Then KC-Steward + Gold for another KC.   Then KC-Steward ($, $, trash Gold and Saboteur) buy another Steward.  Then KC-KC-Steward-Steward buy a Province.  Then trash a Province and buy one until you end the game with 2 Provinces.  I don't think your opponent could beat you to 2 Provinces from the point you trash the Saboteur unless they were doing the same thing.