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Author Topic: Diplomacy Recommended Set  (Read 2696 times)

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Ichimaru Gin

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Diplomacy Recommended Set
« on: November 24, 2013, 02:24:54 pm »
+2

I played this set last night with my father and brother.
$6 Farmland
$5 Ill Gotten Gains, Embassy, Bazaar
$4 Trader, Noble Brigand, Caravan
$3 Ambassador, Smugglers
$2 Embarbo

I opened Ambassador/Noble Brigand for some reason. I planned to open Ambassador/Silver, but decided to pick up the Noble Brigand with the expectation that it would be Embargoed very soon (My dad *really* hates that card).
My Dad opened silver/embargo I think. My brother, lucked out with a 5/2 split and opened Ill-Gotten-Gains, Embargo. Ouch.

The game quickly devolved into the worst slog I think I've ever played. As expected, my dad Embargoed Noble Brigand like 4 times. My brother went for smugglers, and Embargoed Gold 3 times. After my dad started buying Traders, I embargoed those, but later realized that it probably would have been a good idea to get at least one myself before embargoing them.
My brother bought I think 4 IGG before I embargoed them, leaving my father and I riddled with curses, while he remained relatively curse free. Embargos ran out, and with 2 Ambassadors--I got rid of all my curses and coppers, Ambassadoring my deck down to a couple silvers, some caravans, Bazaars, 1 noble brigand and an Embassy.

My opponent's decks were grossly large and inefficient. At one point, my dad bought a Gold despite the Embargo, gaining
three curses. My brother smuggled the Gold on his turn ;D
This game lasted a *long* time, and at some point I remembered that I should be trying to end it. So, on a whim, I started buying Farmlands. Keep in mind that my deck probably only had 15-20 cards in it, and with the Embassies and Caravans, I could consistently draw it every turn.
So, long story short, I bought out almost all the Farmlands. And after drawing my whole deck every turn, I said the same thing "Buy a Farmland, Trash a Farmland, Gain a Province" This went on for about 7 provinces, at which point my opponents gave up. The game probably would have ended soon anyway, but it was pretty clear who was going to win.

So postgame analysis, I'm wondering what you guys would have done differently. With the triple Embargo on Golds, it was almost impossible to get my economy up to the point where we could buy Provinces consistently. And at the point where the game was at, I think Farmlands was the best way to go, but I'm just thinking things would have turned out different if I had been more vigilant in the early game.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 02:26:21 pm by Ichimaru Gin »
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soulnet

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 02:39:46 pm »
+1

If you are consistently drawing your deck and your opponents are slogging, I would use Ambassadors to put the entire Curse pile in their decks, and then 3-pile on Duchies if Provinces are out of range.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 02:55:43 pm »
0

So gaining curses through either buying Embargoed cards, or buying curses directly, and then Ambassadoring them all to my opponents while I go for a Duchy Rush?
I think that makes sense, and would have ended the game quicker. As Embargo was already out, and curses were severely depleted, I could have third-piled on Duchies.
So you think Farmland were less effective in this situation? In the end--when my opponents quit--embargo, and Farmlands were out.
But you think Duchies are definitely better than Farmlands in this situation?

Warfreak2

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 03:09:32 pm »
+4

Trader has to be really good here, it's a hard counter to IGG and Embargo, and defends against Ambassador. If your Dad is going to quadruple-Embargo Noble Brigand, with Trader in hand you get five Silvers for $4 and still get the on-buy attack! Trader synergises with your own Embargoes and IGGs - Embargo the cards you want to buy, and get free Silvers with them - IGG can gain Silver instead of Copper-to-hand, or Trader trashes an IGG for five Silvers. The player on your left will usually only be able to smuggle Silvers from you, which is meh for them. I would just go psycho-Trader on this board, and buy IGGs if my opponents didn't get too many Traders.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 03:16:58 pm by Warfreak2 »
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2013, 03:29:12 pm »
0

I would say that was one thing that slowed the game down--almost all of us ignored trader on this board. And/Or, failed to exploit its reaction ability.
I agree with what you say, and when/if I were to play this set again, I think I would purchase a lot more of them. That combined with a rush on Duchies or Farmlands with all that silver. . .
I think this game would have gone a lot differently.

Also, I feel that Embargo really takes the bite out of IGG in this set. Once it was embargoed, no one bought any. There's just  so many ways to hand out curses: Embargo, Ambassador, and IGG, I feel like it's not as powerful. Which is one reason that I opened Ambassador, because with all the curses flying, it not only hurt my opponents, but helped me clean out my own deck as well. Whereas IGG with 1 Embargo on it is basically: Add 2 crappy cards to your deck and 1 to your opponents.

ftl

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 03:40:35 pm »
+3

I see two viable strategies in this set.

One is mass-trader. Buy traders, lots of traders. With all the junk going around, use the reaction of Trader to gain endless silvers. In that case, Embargos don't even hurt you! Noble Brigand is triple-embargoed? Great, buy a noble brigand and gain three silvers by revealing Trader! And later trash that noble brigand to gain four silvers. Because of IGG, this strategy works even if your opponents don't junk you - if they haven't been junking you, buy IGGs and junk them! (And then trash the IGG for five silvers.) Eventually, your deck is going to have enough silvers that you'll be able to buy provinces or farmlands  with them.

A second is to go heavy ambassador to make yourself a thin deck, then build an engine with mostly caravans, some bazaars and embassies. In that case, you can draw your whole deck, ambassador back any junk you got, and buy one province per turn (or buy a farmland, trashing a farmland to gain a province - same thing). That sounds like basically what you did, but I think you were a little unfocused with it - I suspect in this strategy, you don't want the Noble Brigand, and opening ambassador/caravan is better. (Or keep one curse in your deck and reveal it every turn for your Ambassador - remember, you don't *have* to return to supply the card you reveal, you can just reveal it to make other players gain copies of it.)

In three-player, all of these are very interactive - you have to watch out for three-pile endings if all three people do the same thing. But I think both of the above strategies are fairly resilient to whatever your opponents do.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2013, 04:02:45 pm »
0

Yeah, that is pretty much what I did. Ambassadoring down to a deck with Caravans, Bazaars, and Embassies and then using Farmlands. But you're right, I fell into the deck somewhat by accident. I did not think of it until about the early midgame, in which case, the Noble Brigand (Which turned out pretty useless most of the time cause of all the curses), was a pretty poor opening buy.

Afterwards, my brother said that we should play again on the same board--having learned some from our mistakes.
I might try to perfect the strategy I played with Ambassadors, or I might go for traders--cause they seem especially good at combating curses and helping your economy despite embargos.

I did not know that you don't *have* to return to the card to the supply--this seems like quite a diabolical strategy  ::). I ended up getting rid of both my Ambassadors near the end--as I had nothing to get rid of in my deck at the time. But eventually, I did end up gaining some curses and junk cards. My deck stalled after 5 Provinces/Farmlands. But I was still able to pick up two more--albeit not on consecutive turns like the first ones.

I must say, although I do enjoy playing random sets, I think that the recommended ones always present multiple viable strategies--and are particularly good at highlighting strategies for less-experienced players to learn.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:07:55 pm by Ichimaru Gin »
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ftl

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 12:53:20 am »
0

I did not know that you don't *have* to return to the card to the supply--this seems like quite a diabolical strategy  ::) .

It's part of why Ambassador is such a good card. Early-game it's a trasher. But late-game, in a good engine, it turns into a curser.
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meandering mercury

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 10:39:34 am »
0

Fun fact: in a four-player game, if you Ambassador an IGG back to the supply with a Trader in hand you can curse everyone twice and pick up three silvers!

I agree that this board, like most recommended sets, has no single viable strategy. This one is especially interactive. I agree with ftl that the two broad strategies are Trader and engine. I think that playing the minority strategy is in your best interests, but all other things being equal I'd favor the mass-Trader approach myself.

In a 3p or 4p game, if everyone is buying Ambassadors and returning coppers and estates, your decks aren't actually getting thinner. So if everyone tries going engine, it'll take a long time before anyone succeeds. In this scenario, if 1 of the 3 players is doing Trader I'd bet they'd go out on top because they'd be able to buy a few Provinces before the engines are up and running, and even afterwards when they can no longer hit $8 reliably they can buy Farmlands or Duchies because Trader gives your deck great longevity. Without +buy the engines won't be able to get enough points to out take the Trader player.

On the other hand, in a 3p or 4p game, if everyone is going mass Trader I could see why an engine would pull ahead. At some point in the mid-late game you can start to Ambassador curses over, and hope that the deck is dilute enough so that no Trader is in hand. Also, the Silver pile will run out at some point.

Noble Brigand would be a decent card to pick up if everyone else has lots of silver in their decks.
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DG

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Re: Diplomacy Recommended Set
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 11:54:46 am »
0

This is typical of Donald's designed sets. There is good counterplay for almost every tactic and in a three player game you have to read the balance of play very well (to counter two tactics at the same time). Noble brigand vs Trader vs IGG makes an interesting triangle, but there are other interesting triangles as well.
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