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[Chronos]

So I recently played the following game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-114008-1a089dee.html

I didn't really start out with a plan.  Turns 3 and 4 were pretty bad on my part (I buy a Golem with no actions in my deck and then I buy a single Scheme to go with it), but after that I pick up a Militia and spend the rest of the game playing Golem -> Scheme and Militia and returning Golem to my deck, which is a pretty good lockdown as it's essentially a one card "+1 Action, +1 Card, +2$, opponent discards 2 cards, return to top of deck at end of turn, and cycle a bunch of your deck while you're at it."  I end up 4-0 on Estates when my opponent (understandably) resigns.

So I'm posting this because a) I thought it was cool and b) to see how widely this might apply.  That is, how many other third cards does Golem + Scheme combo super well with?  Any sort of discard attack should work super well.  Would Smithy be strong enough?  That basically gives you an 8 card hand each turn, which is nice.  Or is Golem + Scheme + 1 other action so powerful it doesn't matter too much what the extra action is?

[rrenaud]

There is a little risk that you'll draw the card you intended to golem into your hand, and then you can't play both that card and the golem to scheme the golem away if it's a terminal.  Of course, you can counter this by getting more copies of it (and it's especially good if the attack stacks reasonably, like most cursers or a torturer, but unlike militia).

But yeah, it's the ability to consistently reproduce turns is definitely cute.  It mostly mitigates the effect of shuffle luck.

[DStu]

There is a little risk that you'll draw the card you intended to golem into your hand, and then you can't play both that card and the golem to scheme the golem away if it's a terminal.  Of course, you can counter this by getting more copies of it (and it's especially good if the attack stacks reasonably, like most cursers or a torturer, but unlike militia).

But yeah, it's the ability to consistently reproduce turns is definitely cute.  It mostly mitigates the effect of shuffle luck.

With Golem+Scheme the risk is pretty low, as you can play "Scheme+Golem->X", and also "Golem->Scheme,X". So you only have a problem is you draw Scheme, Golem and X in hand, in which case you would play Scheme and Golem to return the Golem.

Edit:
Golem/Scheme/Mountebank vs. doubleMountebank 64:34 @ Geronimoo's simulator without much tuning

Code: [Select]

<player name="Golem/Scheme/Mountebank" author="Geronimoo" description="This strategy will only buy treasures and green cards.">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Golem">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Golem"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Mountebank">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Mountebank"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Scheme">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Scheme"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Edit2:
Witch does not work (puts Witch back instead of Scheme)
Ghostship: 80:20

Edit3: some more:
Merchant Ship: 23:71  (but of course problem with Duration as you would need 2 optimally, but that's difficult for the simulator)
Monument: 71:25
Smithy: 46:46 (!!)

Edit4:
G/S/Sab : BM-Smithy - 56:42. (Actually 64:35 if you start Potion/Silver instead of Potion/Scheme)

Edit5:
got the Merchant Ship up to 53:40, but still not played optimally by the simulator.

[ftl]

Yeah. If you draw Golem+X, you play the Golem, and the Scheme will give you the +1 action to play the X. If you draw Golem+Scheme, you play scheme first, then Golem to draw/play the X. So you're only in trouble if you draw all *three* in hand at once.

The biggest hurdle in this strategy is the time to buy that Golem - you need to get the potion and then draw 4p before an alternative strategy has time to get set up and win. But I think getting a single Golem can be done in reasonable time - it's about as hard to get as a Gold, and the scheme and the X are presumably easy to get with it.

I think the biggest thing this clashes with is good trashing. If there's ways to play the X every turn or almost every turn without a Golem, then a potion detour is slow.

Seems like it's powerful enough that you should at least consider it whenever there's Golem and Scheme on a board. And as Dstu is showing, a strong attack seems to make it a rout.

I'm curious how Scheme+Golem+Smithy does against the optimised BM-smithy bot. You probably want to open smithy-silver or smithy-scheme, then pick up potion on the first reshuffle, golem on the second reshuffle? Opening potion and hoping to get a first-shuffle golem seems low-probability.

[DStu]

have done some more, a strong terminal X seems to be enough for Golem/Scheme/X beat BM-X. Even Smithy is tied, which I would not have suspected. Espescially as open Potion/Scheme (as I did) is probably not optimal.

Edit: Realized I open Smithy/Scheme. This might be better...

[Chronos]

There is a little risk that you'll draw the card you intended to golem into your hand, and then you can't play both that card and the golem to scheme the golem away if it's a terminal.  Of course, you can counter this by getting more copies of it (and it's especially good if the attack stacks reasonably, like most cursers or a torturer, but unlike militia).

I don't think getting multiple copies of attack works well, since that introduces the (high) probability that you'll double hit the attack and will lose the Golem.  The way around this, of course, is to get x Golems, x Schemes, and x other actions, at most of 1 of which is terminal. 

For the drawing the multiple cards into your hand, others have already pointed out that this is only problematic if all three are drawn, which doesn't happen very often since the Golem stops when he hits two actions, likely leaving a buffer in your draw pile to help keep all three actions from being drawn.

[popsofctown]

The biggest hurdle in this strategy is the time to buy that Golem - you need to get the potion and then draw 4p before an alternative strategy has time to get set up and win. But I think getting a single Golem can be done in reasonable time - it's about as hard to get as a Gold, and the scheme and the X are presumably easy to get with it.

I would argue that Bank is a much better approximation of how hard Golem is to get.  If the potion were a silver, then Golem would cost the same as a gold.  But alchemy cards throw an additional wrench in the machinery because they require you to get a specific combination of treasure to get it, two potions and a silver won't buy golem, although anything from gold silver copper to four coppers and a silver buys a gold.

Golem should be treated like a mini-kc.  Kinda.

[Copernicus]

The one time I had this going, I had Golem, Scheme *2, Attack *2.  Sometimes I missed and only got one attack off, but I rarely had Golem/Scheme/Scheme happen.  It also felt stronger than just one attack.

[ftl]

Might also depend on the attack. The risk of missing a turn probably isn't worth it for the possibility of a double-militia, but might be worth it for double-torturer.

Good point to popsofctown on the Golem cost.

[DG]

Golem-scheme-action works fine. Nothing extra and nothing taken away. It can't draw badly. It defends well against curses and top of deck attacks. The simulator likes it too.

[Geronimoo]

I found that you'll mostly want to open Potion/Silver and not Potion/Scheme.

[DStu]

I found that you'll mostly want to open Potion/Silver and not Potion/Scheme.

I also suspected that, and I think my improved Sab vs Smithy is with this setup. But Scheme>Silver was historically grown by just throwing in some of the cards I thought I need to buy without caring much on the order...

[hobo386]

Nice combo.  Effective and easy to pull off.  Personally, I'm guessing this will work best with hand reducing attacks rather than cursing attacks, mainly because by the time you set it up, the curses are already halfway gone.  Not saying a mountebanke wouldn't be good, but that miltia/goons are a lot better than sea hag or young witch.

[Qvist]

To relive this thread, yesterday I had a fun match with Golem+Scheme+Goons.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120126-113953-79e0c3c2.html
First I saw Gardens + Silk Road, but there were no good support cards there (except for Goons). So I buyed Golem and 2 Schemes.
I could top-deck my Golem nearly every turn and could play Goons every turn. Later I picked up another Golem and could top-deck 2 Golems. Now I could play 2-3 Goons every turn and could deplete Gardens + Silk Road really fast. The coppers and green cards didn't hurt my deck because of Golem+Scheme.
I won with 119 - 47. That was fun and a really strong combo.

[chogg]

I recently stumbled across this combo too.  Just like the OP, I didn't have a real plan, but it slowly dawned on me what I had done.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120122-035305-3104efac.html
Starting at turn 12, I start every hand with a Market, 2 Golems, and 2 Schemes, and I can consistently play 5 schemes.  Trader had left my deck full of Silvers, so I could buy a Province every turn.

It's also notable for how I lost the game.  My opponent had good drawing capability, with King's Court and Envoy, plus a few Markets, but couldn't come up with the cash.  Enter Coppersmith!  His final turn involved 9 coppers worth 7 each, and he grabbed the final 4 Provinces plus enough Duchies to take the win.

[ecq]

I recently stumbled across this combo too.  Just like the OP, I didn't have a real plan, but it slowly dawned on me what I had done.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120122-035305-3104efac.html
Starting at turn 12, I start every hand with a Market, 2 Golems, and 2 Schemes, and I can consistently play 5 schemes.  Trader had left my deck full of Silvers, so I could buy a Province every turn.

It's also notable for how I lost the game.  My opponent had good drawing capability, with King's Court and Envoy, plus a few Markets, but couldn't come up with the cash.  Enter Coppersmith!  His final turn involved 9 coppers worth 7 each, and he grabbed the final 4 Provinces plus enough Duchies to take the win.

King's Court / Scheme was a missed opportunity there.  Someone mentioned earlier that Golem is like a mini-KC.

People have compared Golem + Scheme + Powerful X to BM + Powerful X, but I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.  Scheme is on the board.  What about Scheme + Scheme + (possibly more Schemes) + Powerful X?  The latter is faster and easier to set up than Golem and probably plays X nearly as often.  It has the advantage of not being adverse to other other cards in deck and not burdening you with a Potion.

[Ferrouswheel]

To relive this thread, yesterday I had a fun match with Golem+Scheme+Goons.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120126-113953-79e0c3c2.html
First I saw Gardens + Silk Road, but there were no good support cards there (except for Goons). So I buyed Golem and 2 Schemes.
I could top-deck my Golem nearly every turn and could play Goons every turn. Later I picked up another Golem and could top-deck 2 Golems. Now I could play 2-3 Goons every turn and could deplete Gardens + Silk Road really fast. The coppers and green cards didn't hurt my deck because of Golem+Scheme.
I won with 119 - 47. That was fun and a really strong combo.

I admit that I'm amused by the fact that you ended the garden/silk road game with 49 cards and 19 victory cards. Not saying that you shouldn't have ended it of course, just that it was funny that you were an estate short of 11 more points.

That's one nice estate.

[DsnowMan]

I am going to necro this thread to point out that Golem + Scheme + X = pirate ship is a hilarious good time.

Once you have this set up, you can buy estates or duchies with every buy, as you wait for your pirate ship to ramp up.

As others have pointed out, it is almost impervious to attacks, and is particularly crippling to an unsuspecting opponent. Against good opposition, it will probably be a pirate ship race.

[ehunt]

I'm surprised with the potion open - the risk of a crash on second shuffle is just so high. Am I wrong? This would explain why I lose to folks who open potion just to buy golems a lot... I've always just assumed I was terribly unlucky!

[zahlman]

I just found out the could-have-been-harder way that Counting House is an excellent X, at least if there is no +buy and no obviously better engine. The key is that everything is discarded before you choose to play the actions, so it's guaranteed to pick up every Copper you have. (So this is a counterexample to ecq's point earlier in the thread, I guess...) My opponent would surely have beaten my pseudo-golden-deck strategy with 1 Scheme and 1 Golem, rather than 3 Golems, and with more aggressive greening (the Platinum is totally useless - the early Silvers don't hurt, though, and make it easier to hit $4p) and picking up a couple extra Coppers with earlier buys to make 11 in total.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/22/game-20121122-053347-6f19ac35.html

The  interesting thing to me about these engines is that they actually get more reliable as you add junk to your deck, because that reduces the chance of drawing both the Scheme and the X along with your topdecked Golem.