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[EFHW]

Faust was Lu Meng, a Vanilla Townie.

Day 2 starts Saturday December 21st at 2 pm.

Night actions (if any) are due in 48 hours.  Please cc me and Archetype in case mcmc is not back.

[Galzria]

Thread still locked!

[EFHW]

Would the night never end?  When finally the sun rose, Eevee, Lu Su, the Town-aligned role cop was dead.  Now what?

DAY 2 begins

THREAD UNLOCKED

[mail-mi]

vote: e

[liopoil]

well, at least we can't mislynch him now! it also means that 1, 3, or 4 Rs were rolled, which for each die rolled has a 1/20 chance.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.1

第二天

2.7... (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (0): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Voltaire, 2.7..., Teproc, chairs, Robz888

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Tuesday, December 31st at 6 pm.

[yuma]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

[yuma]

vote: e

Why?

[yuma]

vote: e

Why?

No. Screw it. vote: mail-mi. I am tired of second guessing people and trying to get beyond their anti-town play. if you put down a vote, tell me why. I dont' care if you already explained a scummy read a few posts above... reference that post. Do something. Failure to do so means that I have to do more work which means that I might not do it... because I and others are busy. So just explain your vote, until then you get a vote from me. Why? Because you didn't explain your vote.

[yuma]

Oh and day1 post count (slightly off since from this post:

1. Voltaire - 160
2. Robz888 - 115
3. mail-mi - 51
4. Chairs - 35
5. Ashersky - 109
6. Yuma - 78
7. Ichimaru Gin - 47
8. Lekkit - 32
9. Liopoil - 59
10. Teproc - 107
11. 2.7 - 149
12. Eevee - 42
13. Faust - 88

[mail-mi]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

This post gives me all the wrong feelings. Not the vote, cause I think the vote is fine. The entire post. Like, "Yeah he could be a PR but guess what--we have could have 7!" just rubs me all the wrong ways. vote: e to have it somewhere before faust comes.

Oh wait, deadline is 2:20, which is 12:20, which means I won't be on until then. Well, vote: liopoil because he's more viable.

@yuma, it's this. I know I also voted for chairs, but the reasoning is all wrong to me.

[liopoil]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

mostly agree with this. claiming a PR as VT specifically bad, but as PR there are more situations where it could be acceptable. But yeah, please be certain that what you are doing is pro-town, not just that "hey, doing this is more fun! and it might not be totally terrible!" And that's when it comes to role claiming... I think my little lie yesterday about the setup was fine, yes?

but in general, we as a town should be able to lynch all liars, and be successful. We don't want scum to be able to say "I lied, sorry"  when they get counterclaimed when they fakeclaim.

[chairs]

I think mail-mi's argument is sound here.  vote: e.

I can't remember offhand what interactions Eevee had D1, I'll try to review tomorrow.

[yuma]

I think my little lie yesterday about the setup was fine, yes?

yes, i think yours was fine, although ultimately not useful but that wasn't known at the time... but again, even these sort of little lies can sometimes cause more damage than good, trying to trap players, etc, etc. there is a place for them, but they need to be done carefully and well thought out. the whole point is that if town is truthful it will force scum to be truthful except when the can't be and therefore easier to catch when they aren't. everytime town lies makes it easier for scum to lie.

[2.71828.....]

So.  Eevee was a role cop.  So I guess that was why he said his reads would be stronger starting D2.

[Voltaire]

And I think if faust had actually been the Hider, what he did was an interesting, maybe good way to tell us who his target would be. If he had been the Hider. And if it had not gotten him lynched.

So yeah.

I'll need to re-look at the faust wagon when I have time. I assume the Eevee kill was just successful PR hunting.

[2.71828.....]

On the side:  And can we do a soft deadline of some sort for the 30th?  I know I will not be around to vote on New Year's Eve. 

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

[liopoil]

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

Vote: E

I think that he as scum thought eevee was a PR, and his talk about him being useful later was scum thinking that he was a PR, and so in the case that eevee ends up claiming at L-1 he looks townie.  Scum almost certainly killed eevee because they thought eevee was a PR. Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

[Robz888]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

I consider the above a truthbomb. Well said, yuma. That was just a complete debacle. I'm always pushing back against yuma's insistent that "If we lynch X for bad reasons (like a supposed scumslip) we can't analyze the wagon!" This may actually be the time where I share that fear. Faust was just, a likely scum candidate based on his lying and disappearing, or at worst a townie who compromised Day 1, and we were running out of time. Does scum join that wagon? Probably some do, some don't, and it's going to be darn hard to try and guess since the wagon was justifiable, but not so extremely justifiable that we can like suspect people for not opposing it.

Except maybe 2.7, who I noted yesterday had I think the most evolvingly scummy reaction to all the faust stuff. I'll try to summarize when I have time.

[Robz888]

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

Vote: E

I think that he as scum thought eevee was a PR, and his talk about him being useful later was scum thinking that he was a PR, and so in the case that eevee ends up claiming at L-1 he looks townie.  Scum almost certainly killed eevee because they thought eevee was a PR. Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

Yes, BUT I think I noticed 2.7 doing this in Tory Story mafia too, when he was not mafia. I'll have to check.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm considering the e wagon. But I also want to go over and review again what occurred with Faust--in light of him flipping VT. Why did he feel so strongly that Ash was scum? His behavior didn't really make sense to me--yet his goal seemed to be taking down Ash. And he obv felt pretty strongly about it.

Also, concerning Faust's meta, is he relatively new to this community? Was his behavior pretty much in line with what he normally does, or was this an unexpected gambit? There may not be a lot we can learn from his wagon, but it got some of the strongest reactions D1--and at least served the purpose of stirring things up a little bit.
I'd like to hear from Ash about everything that's happened since his absence.

[ashersky]

I'm considering the e wagon. But I also want to go over and review again what occurred with Faust--in light of him flipping VT. Why did he feel so strongly that Ash was scum? His behavior didn't really make sense to me--yet his goal seemed to be taking down Ash. And he obv felt pretty strongly about it.

Also, concerning Faust's meta, is he relatively new to this community? Was his behavior pretty much in line with what he normally does, or was this an unexpected gambit? There may not be a lot we can learn from his wagon, but it got some of the strongest reactions D1--and at least served the purpose of stirring things up a little bit.
I'd like to hear from Ash about everything that's happened since his absence.

No idea why he was tunneling me.  Probably OMGUS for me tunneling him.

He was out of character compared to his previous games.  I would not have expected him to torpedo town with town lies.

[liopoil]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

[Voltaire]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

Yes. You wanted us to lynch someone 100% of the time with 100% certainty they were scum.

[ashersky]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.