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[Puddleglumm]

This doesn't seem like a super hard problem to solve. If you track a players average decision time you could publish it so people who slow played frequently would be known. You could also use this info to tell when a player is playing significantly slower than usual, warn them to speed it up in the interface somehow, and boot them if they don't. But I doubt this is even on Goko's radar.

[soulnet]

There was a formula for how isotropic determined whether you were taking "too long" and could be kicked out. It was deliberately kept secret so slow-players couldn't deliberately play to it.

Are you sure it wasn't just too complicated to put into a formula?

[SCSN]

This doesn't seem like a super hard problem to solve.

You have to remember that Goko's job assessment includes playing 10 games against Serf Bot, and they employ only those who lose them all.

[Kirian]

There was a formula for how isotropic determined whether you were taking "too long" and could be kicked out. It was deliberately kept secret so slow-players couldn't deliberately play to it.

Are you sure it wasn't just too complicated to put into a formula?

Presumably the formula involved chicken.  Lots of chicken.

[Eevee]

And actually, my "House Rule" on starting hands is I think the best one: You can organize your starting 10 cards in whatever order you want before the game begins.

Improvement idea: The player going last gets to decide what way everyone arranges their deck (essentially identical starting hands that aren't random). Reduces first player advantage, secures identical hands for an even playing field, lets you not play the unfun 5-2's where you buy a three-cost and nothing.. unless someone likes it, which is bound to happen every once in a while.

[AdamH]

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Maybe in a tournament setting where the only goal is to amplify the effect of skill.

But it's so much fun to win against someone who opened 5/2 on an IGG/Mountebank board or someone who collides TMaps on turn 5 without buying Warehouse (or any other support). Maybe that's a little Timmy-ish of me but variance keeps the game fresh for me.

Don't you get tired of *always* getting the dream 5/2 opening on Mountebank boards? I would...

[SCSN]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Eh, why? Identical starting hands, by decreasing variance, increase first-player advantage, and I already find FPA far more annoying than the luck factor.

[Robz888]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Eh, why? Identical starting hands, by decreasing variance, increase first-player advantage, and I already find FPA far more annoying than the luck factor.

Well, it's a matter of taste, then.

But someone has to go first, so that's just a flaw of Dominion.

The flaw of "you got Cultist so this game is (likely) over on Turn 1" can be fixed, though.

[ftl]

It's just a special case of "shuffle luck matters". It's not a flaw. Shuffle luck isn't a defect of dominion, it's part of  the way the game is *supposed* to work.

[blueblimp]

It's just a special case of "shuffle luck matters". It's not a flaw. Shuffle luck isn't a defect of dominion, it's part of  the way the game is *supposed* to work.

Generally it's better to have less luck in a competitive setting and more luck in a casual setting, so it makes a lot of sense to play tournaments with variants that tone down the luck factor without hurting the core game.

[yed]

The flaw of "you got Cultist so this game is (likely) over on Turn 1" can be fixed, though.

I have lost by opening Cultist/- a lot of times.... I even thing silver/silver Cultists big money is stronger than Cultist/- Cultists big money...
And with no trashing Cultists big money is quite strong...

[rrwoods]

Honestly I have gone through phases on identical starting hands. At first I thought "that's not dominion", then I thought "well it decreases luck so it has to be good", and then I got to where I am now.

Look, first and foremost -- it's not in the rules. It's not dominion.

As far as the skill is concerned (which is, of course, what most of this community is worried about) I will quote donald: "Dominion is high-skill high-luck, like poker." Guys, luck and skill are orthogonal! Decreasing one may have no effect, the opposite effect, or the same effect, on the other. It's my belief that identical starting hands decreases both, especially at very high levels of play.

Even 4/3 is different from 3/4 on some boards -- if there are two competing strategies with different openings, p2's turn 1 might respond to p1's turn 1 (high level players can't tell me this hasn't happened, right?). And what if both openings have the same $3 but different $4s?

I could go on and on but I don't think I'll really convince anyone of anything, so...

tl;dr -- identical starting hands is dumb and i'd rather play dominion

[sudgy]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

[LastFootnote]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

[soulnet]

luck and skill are orthogonal!

Not quite. I certainly agree they are not parallel, but I don't think they are orthogonal either.

Anyway, they cannot be orthogonal, because the game is evaluated in a one dimensional scale (loss < draw < win), so you can project their influence into this linear scale and orthogonality is lost.

In less ridiculously abstract terms, if a game is "each player throws 100 dice, the one with largest sum is the winner, in case of equal sums, the winner of a chess match is the winner" you could argue it is high skill because chess is, and being better at chess improves your odds of winning at this game. However, luck is such a large factor, that skill influence is basically negligible.

So, I think the argument of "opening luck has a too large influence on the outcome, to the point that it eclipses skill" is valid. If the condition is true is a different discussion, and probably the discussion that makes sense. It definitely feels true in some cases, and shuffle luck is definitely more important than skill in a significant portion of the games. Identical starting hands is an attempt to reduce that factor, an attempt that I agree does not reduce skill. Reducing shuffle luck altogether is less likely to succeed, because you also want to avoid analysis paralysis and shifting focus from the actual game.

I don't like the "start however you want" because of the shifting focus, although it is an interesting variant to try. Also, I feel like in a significant portion of the boards it would induce too much AP.

I like identical starting hands in principle, but I don't like that it increases, though slightly, first player advantage. One of the advantages of 2nd player (and later players in general for >2 player games) is knowing the opening distribution and the buy. Knowing that there are identical starting hands eliminates one part of that advantage.

[sudgy]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

Coppers help you out when going for Duchy/Duke.

[shark_bait]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

[GeoLib]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

[LastFootnote]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

Coppers help you out when going for Duchy/Duke.

Hmm, I'll buy that that's usually the case. But when Mountebank's on the board, I think you'd want to wait on Copper flooding until midgame because A) more Copper in your deck means you play Mountebank less often and B) it also means you're less likely to have a Curse in hand to defend against your opponent's Mountebanks.

[markusin]

Okay so, I get that Dominion was designed to have a randomness factor from the start. Donald X. settled on the 7C/3E starting decks in order to have that Turn 1-Turn 2 variance. I like not knowing whether I'll start with a 5/2 or a 3/4 opening on a board. The luck factor really helps enhance the casual experience.

It's just, having player end up with different starting hands can leave a bad taste in someone's mouth at the end of the game, even if luck balances out later in the game. Players may feel like they had an unfair advantage/disadvantage from the very start that detracts from the value of the win or loss at the end. Or, you know, they get a huge ego boost for winning a game where they felt they had the worse opening hand.

Having a third party (such as a computer) that can ensure that each player at least has the same copper split for their opening hands, even if the order is different, just seems like an option that would be nice to have. But perhaps, first player advantage is a bigger issue that should be addressed in tournament settings by having alternating first players.

Having said all that, I like Goko's Pro-mode a lot. It's nice to be forced to man up and play with cards like Possession, Goons, and Rebuild. It's just not quite as well suited for tournament play.

[Ozle]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

If they don't just take them back and exchange them for new ones.

[qmech]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

If they don't just take them back and exchange them for new ones.

I've always assumed that this is what's meant by "Baby changing area".

[blueblimp]

Since we're discussing luck, I'll assume everyone has seen Richard Garfield's talk on it, since he gives a lot of insight into the subject.

Honestly I have gone through phases on identical starting hands. At first I thought "that's not dominion", then I thought "well it decreases luck so it has to be good", and then I got to where I am now.

Look, first and foremost -- it's not in the rules. It's not dominion.

I think everyone would agree that it's a variant. But (in my opinion) it's completely fine to play a variant as long as you understand why the original rule existed and have a good reason for changing it. It's normal to have tournament rules for games that may be slightly different than the rules people use when playing casually.

Dominion was designed primarily as a 3-player hobby game, not a 2-player competitive game. Of course Donald X. made it work with 2 and 4 players too, but still it's almost an accident that 2-player competition works as well as it does. Having the possibility of different starting hands in a 3-player hobby context is great: it slightly increases variety in openings, and the increase in luck is a good thing.

In a 2-player competitive context, it's preferable to tone down the luck, because then fewer games are needed to determine the better player of two people who are close to evenly matched. It's debatable whether the slight loss in opening variety is worth it.

[flies]

Anyway, they cannot be orthogonal, because the game is evaluated in a one dimensional scale (loss < draw < win), so you can project their influence into this linear scale and orthogonality is lost.

+10

[() | (_) ^/]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?