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Author Topic: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme  (Read 12868 times)

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popsofctown

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Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« on: November 14, 2011, 12:56:15 pm »
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When I read the text of scheme, I always thought that seaside cards wouldnt be eligible until they had played out both their turns, but isotropic gives me the option of returning them to the top of the deck (new) so I have to consider I might be wrong.

I'd always guessed that you would just miss the second effect if you returned them to the top of the deck immediately, until today when I played a set with Scheme and Haven.  Keeping the card set aside the whole game seemed weird...

What's the correct interaction?
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Lekkit

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 12:58:54 pm »
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The thing is that you can pick a new duration card. However since it won't be discarded this turn it won't go to the top of the deck.

Scheme lets you pick any action card in play, but does only return it if it will be discarded.
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popsofctown

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 01:00:17 pm »
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ohh that makes sense.
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DsnowMan

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 01:22:34 pm »
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Note that if you do use Scheme on a (new) Haven, the card you set aside is still returned to your hand next turn as usual. The Haven just ends up in your discard pile a turn earlier.

EDIT: oops.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 05:06:17 pm by DsnowMan »
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HP7289

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 01:30:20 pm »
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Wrong. Haven is not discarded, so Scheme has no effects on it. Short: Nothing happens.
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Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 09:38:58 am »
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I also thought originally that isotropic let me return the duration card, because that's what it said. After trying it I understood that it lets me pick the card but not return it. So the text is misleading. I started this thread about it: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=957.0

I can't really see why there's a need to even give the option of picking these cards, but as you can see in that thread the game designer himself disagrees. (The only valid reason given is that that's what the card literally says.)

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 10:40:31 am »
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(The only valid reason given is that that's what the card literally says.)

And it's a pretty good reason too, don't you think?
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Dominionaer

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 11:55:21 am »
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I can't really see why there's a need to even give the option of picking these cards, ...
Similar to Moat: Although it is pretty useless to show Moat more than once, you may. And since "new" duration are also in play ...

Probably it is less struggle to implement it this way than to compute ahead, which can and which (may) not.
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Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 01:14:07 pm »
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It's not always useless to show Moat more than once.

What the card literally says: I'm not at all sure that's such a great reason in this case. But I said a lot about these things (including the Moat comparison) in the other thread, and gave my reasons pretty thoroughly.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 02:20:16 pm »
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It's not always useless to show Moat more than once.
To the same attack? Yes, it is (or please provide a counterexample if you insist otherwise).

Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 02:23:42 pm »
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Sorry, no of course you're right. I was thinking of Secret Chamber.

popsofctown

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 03:16:30 pm »
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Isotropic should do what the card says.  Kinda black and white.  I just didn't understand it because I wasn't paying attention
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AJD

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 04:09:22 pm »
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Isotropic should do what the card says.  Kinda black and white.  I just didn't understand it because I wasn't paying attention

It doesn't, though. Isotropic says "return an action card to your deck", not "choose an action card". Scheme doesn't determine whether the card is being returned to the deck until after you choose it. So if the interface is going to allow you choose cards that won't be returned to the deck, the prompt for doing so shouldn't be "return an action card to your deck".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2011, 05:01:06 pm »
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Isotropic should do what the card says.  Kinda black and white.  I just didn't understand it because I wasn't paying attention

It doesn't, though. Isotropic says "return an action card to your deck", not "choose an action card". Scheme doesn't determine whether the card is being returned to the deck until after you choose it. So if the interface is going to allow you choose cards that won't be returned to the deck, the prompt for doing so shouldn't be "return an action card to your deck".
Isotropic does do what the card says, it just tells the user that it's doing something different. I agree, the wording should be changed to something like "choose a card to return to your deck."
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Toskk

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 07:40:41 pm »
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Isotropic should do what the card says.  Kinda black and white.  I just didn't understand it because I wasn't paying attention

It doesn't, though. Isotropic says "return an action card to your deck", not "choose an action card". Scheme doesn't determine whether the card is being returned to the deck until after you choose it. So if the interface is going to allow you choose cards that won't be returned to the deck, the prompt for doing so shouldn't be "return an action card to your deck".
Isotropic does do what the card says, it just tells the user that it's doing something different. I agree, the wording should be changed to something like "choose a card to return to your deck."

Or the wordier: "choose a card to return to your deck if it is discarded from play this turn."
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Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 08:09:43 am »
+1

Btw, here's another thing that isotropic does wrong for the sake of convenience: It doesn't let you you choose the order to execute previous durations at the beginning of your turn. If it were to follow the rules literally, we should have to click for each and every card. Haven't heard anybody complain about this. The difference of course is that doing it that way would be more inconvenient but not susceptible to mistakes, while the way Scheme is implemented is both more inconvenient and susceptible to mistakes.

Dominionaer

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 08:33:54 am »
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... isotropic ...: It doesn't let you you choose the order to execute previous durations ...
So what? Does it really matters wether you first draw 2 cards and then get +1 action or reversed?

Of course in RL there is the trouble, that you have to do all yourself - if one remember in time, what iso does automatic.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 09:08:23 am by Dominionaer »
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rinkworks

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 09:27:30 am »
+1

... isotropic ...: It doesn't let you you choose the order to execute previous durations ...
So what? Does it really matters wether you first draw 2 cards and then get +1 action or reversed?

Of course in RL there is the trouble, that you have to do all yourself - if one remember in time, what iso does automatic.

I think the point is that no, it doesn't matter (with the existing set of duration cards), but a slavish devotion to the rules (which explicitly say you can choose the order) would demand that you can choose.

Similarly, iso lets you choose any action card with Scheme even though choosing a card that won't be cleaned up is the same as not choosing one at all.

In the former case, the letter of the rules are ignored for the sake of convenience; in the latter case, they are followed even though doing so causes even more inconvenience than following the duration card order rule would.

I don't care either way, by the way -- I don't even play on iso -- but that's what I think the observation was.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 09:34:31 am »
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Btw, here's another thing that isotropic does wrong for the sake of convenience: It doesn't let you you choose the order to execute previous durations at the beginning of your turn. If it were to follow the rules literally, we should have to click for each and every card. Haven't heard anybody complain about this. The difference of course is that doing it that way would be more inconvenient but not susceptible to mistakes, while the way Scheme is implemented is both more inconvenient and susceptible to mistakes.
The very fact that it is susceptible to mistakes is why Isotropic should allow it, I think. With multiple durations, you have no choice that results in a different outcome. Sure, you might have a theoretical choice about whether to draw 1 card from Caravan before or after you draw 2 cards from Wharf, but the end result is that you will have drawn the top 3 cards of your deck, there is no possible choice that results otherwise. Therefore, there's no need for Isotropic to allow it. With Scheme, there is a meaningful choice (which could be called a "mistake," if you wish). You can choose a new duration card to put on top of your deck, which will result in not getting a card on top of your deck. This is a real choice, one that has a different outcome from choosing another card.

The point is that I don't think Isotropic skips choosing the order of your duration card resolving for just convenience sake. It does it because there is no choice that would result in a different outcome. To skip something where a choice would allow for a different outcome is not just a matter of convenience, it removes a possible outcome of the turn.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 09:45:23 am »
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This is also shown on Isotropic when you draw 3 Coppers with Lookout.  It doesn't make you choose which card to trash, discard and top deck because there is only one possible outcome.

GendoIkari

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 10:11:15 am »
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Or anytime that you have to trash a card, when there is only one choice. It doesn't let you choose which copper of your 4 to trash.
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Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 10:19:19 am »
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The very fact that it is susceptible to mistakes is why Isotropic should allow it, I think.
Right! This is what I was saying in the other thread. It seems for some/most people it boils down to: it has to be allowed in case the user makes a mistake. So the reason the choice is there (according to this argument) is to trick you.

With multiple durations, you have no choice that results in a different outcome.
Not now, but who knows with future cards? Same as people are saying with Scheme, who knows with future cards -- there might be a case where giving this choice actually matters (except for making the user possibly click wrong). Anyway, the other example is that isotropic, for convenience, doesn't let you choose which card to put on top when you discard, and this does make a difference, however small. (It actually sometimes lists openly all your discarded cards, sometimes none of them.)

AJD

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 10:25:25 am »
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Btw, here's another thing that isotropic does wrong for the sake of convenience: It doesn't let you you choose the order to execute previous durations at the beginning of your turn. If it were to follow the rules literally, we should have to click for each and every card. Haven't heard anybody complain about this. The difference of course is that doing it that way would be more inconvenient but not susceptible to mistakes, while the way Scheme is implemented is both more inconvenient and susceptible to mistakes.
The very fact that it is susceptible to mistakes is why Isotropic should allow it, I think. With multiple durations, you have no choice that results in a different outcome. Sure, you might have a theoretical choice about whether to draw 1 card from Caravan before or after you draw 2 cards from Wharf, but the end result is that you will have drawn the top 3 cards of your deck, there is no possible choice that results otherwise. Therefore, there's no need for Isotropic to allow it. With Scheme, there is a meaningful choice (which could be called a "mistake," if you wish). You can choose a new duration card to put on top of your deck, which will result in not getting a card on top of your deck. This is a real choice, one that has a different outcome from choosing another card.

It doesn't have a different outcome from choosing "none", though.
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rinkworks

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 10:30:13 am »
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With Scheme, there is a meaningful choice (which could be called a "mistake," if you wish). You can choose a new duration card to put on top of your deck, which will result in not getting a card on top of your deck. This is a real choice, one that has a different outcome from choosing another card.

Yes, but choosing a card that won't be cleaned up has exactly the same outcome as not choosing a card at all.

With multiple durations, you have no choice that results in a different outcome.
Not now, but who knows with future cards?

If a future card comes out that makes the duration card order matter, then the code can be changed to allow the user to specify the order.  That's just part of the coding job to make the new card work.  There's no reason to code current cards any particular way just to anticipate this remote possibility.  Unless you think it's better than a remote possibility, I suppose, in which case you might think it would be less work to plan for it.  But even then, there is no right and wrong way to anticipate future development.
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Jeebus

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Re: Returning (new) seaside cards to the top of the deck with scheme
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 11:43:23 am »
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If a future card comes out that makes the duration card order matter, then the code can be changed to allow the user to specify the order.
Exactly. We're in agreement on this. That was my point regarding Scheme. It doesn't matter now whether you click none or a duration that won't be cleaned up.
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