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Author Topic: gain prohibition with Knights  (Read 12668 times)

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AJD

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2014, 09:26:32 am »
0

And I think this discussion explains why there are so few "you may not" clauses on cards.  I think Contraband is the only one.

Grand Market is another.

…and it's also, specifically, a "can't buy" clause.
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ConMan

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 06:19:59 pm »
0

And I think this discussion explains why there are so few "you may not" clauses on cards.  I think Contraband is the only one.

Grand Market is another.

…and it's also, specifically, a "can't buy" clause.
Although it does interfere with other cards, if you take +1 Buy to be equivalent to text saying "You may buy one additional card this turn." It's not a perfect analogy to the "you can't gain" vs "gain" paradox, but no-one here argues that you can buy a Grand Market with your second or third Buy if you have Copper in play.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2014, 07:30:22 pm »
0

And I think this discussion explains why there are so few "you may not" clauses on cards.  I think Contraband is the only one.

Grand Market is another.
And Outpost.
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SirPeebles

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 07:46:05 pm »
+1

And I think this discussion explains why there are so few "you may not" clauses on cards.  I think Contraband is the only one.

Grand Market is another.
And Outpost.

Outpost doesn't put a restriction on a player, it puts a restriction on itself.
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Donald X.

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 01:24:14 am »
+4

I don't think prohibiting gaining is that hard to do. Just translate "Duchies cannot be gained" to "When you would gain a Duchy, gain nothing instead".
We allready have that situation with Trader and an empty Silver pile, just here it's forced. Trader rules (which are, admittedly, confusing sometimes) apply.
Correct, that is how to phrase it (or like, "when you would gain a Duchy, you don't"). It's a bad phrasing, it confuses people, but it's the way to do it.

In the early days of Magic, you had Stone Rain, "destroy target land," and Consecrate Land, "enchanted land can't be destroyed." Which effect wins? They contradict each other. There is a tendency to lean towards "the preventing effect wins," and that often does the trick (for published games that produce such a contradiction in mid-game and you need an answer). But the real solution is "when enchanted land would be destroyed, it isn't." That completely removes the contradiction. [These days they say "Enchanted land is indestructible" which sends you to the rulebook for the whole story.]
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GendoIkari

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 01:45:13 am »
0

I don't think prohibiting gaining is that hard to do. Just translate "Duchies cannot be gained" to "When you would gain a Duchy, gain nothing instead".
We allready have that situation with Trader and an empty Silver pile, just here it's forced. Trader rules (which are, admittedly, confusing sometimes) apply.
Correct, that is how to phrase it (or like, "when you would gain a Duchy, you don't"). It's a bad phrasing, it confuses people, but it's the way to do it.

In the early days of Magic, you had Stone Rain, "destroy target land," and Consecrate Land, "enchanted land can't be destroyed." Which effect wins? They contradict each other. There is a tendency to lean towards "the preventing effect wins," and that often does the trick (for published games that produce such a contradiction in mid-game and you need an answer). But the real solution is "when enchanted land would be destroyed, it isn't." That completely removes the contradiction. [These days they say "Enchanted land is indestructible" which sends you to the rulebook for the whole story.]

Well that and MTG has a specific rule that says that "can't" always wins when there's a contradiction. All the new Archetypes need that rule to work. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378488).

And welcome back Donald!
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Jeebus

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2014, 11:03:40 am »
0

Consider a duration card called Barricade.  While you have a Barricade in play, you cannot gain Curses or Ruins.

If you buy a Poor House while you have a Haggler in play, you follow Haggler's instructions. Because you can't gain Ruins or Curses and the Copper pile is empty, you are not able to do everything Haggler tells you to do.

A more interesting question is this:
What if the Copper pile isn't empty? Can you choose to gain a Curse, and fail to gain it because of Barricade, effectively gaining nothing? Or do you have to choose Copper?

Normally, if a card says, "gain a card costing $4", you're only allowed to choose cards costing $4. You can't choose a card costing $3 and then fail to gain it because it doesn't cost $4. You have to gain a card costing $4 if one is in Supply. You could say the same thing here, you have to choose a card in Supply which conforms to the current restrictions, so you can't choose Curse.

However, since the best wording, and the way Donald explained would be the way to handle this kind of restrictions, is, "when you would gain a Curse or a Ruins, you don't", the answer is clear. You can choose a Curse, and then fail to gain it, effectively gaining nothing.

Awaclus

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2014, 11:37:55 am »
0

Consider a duration card called Barricade.  While you have a Barricade in play, you cannot gain Curses or Ruins.

If you buy a Poor House while you have a Haggler in play, you follow Haggler's instructions. Because you can't gain Ruins or Curses and the Copper pile is empty, you are not able to do everything Haggler tells you to do.

A more interesting question is this:
What if the Copper pile isn't empty? Can you choose to gain a Curse, and fail to gain it because of Barricade, effectively gaining nothing? Or do you have to choose Copper?

Normally, if a card says, "gain a card costing $4", you're only allowed to choose cards costing $4. You can't choose a card costing $3 and then fail to gain it because it doesn't cost $4. You have to gain a card costing $4 if one is in Supply. You could say the same thing here, you have to choose a card in Supply which conforms to the current restrictions, so you can't choose Curse.

However, since the best wording, and the way Donald explained would be the way to handle this kind of restrictions, is, "when you would gain a Curse or a Ruins, you don't", the answer is clear. You can choose a Curse, and then fail to gain it, effectively gaining nothing.
Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?
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soulnet

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2014, 11:59:16 am »
0

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

This is getting ¿dangerously? close to a discussion about the nature of sexual orientation.

EDIT:
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Jeebus

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2014, 02:51:24 pm »
0

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

It depends on how Grand Market's restriction is supposed to work. Is it a when-would-buy effect? Same goes for Contraband. If course it doesn't matter, since nothing happens on when-would-buy, and there are no mandatory buys in the game.

luser

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2014, 04:36:05 pm »
0

So you still buy knights with contraband by first playing horn of plenty to gain top one?
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florrat

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2014, 04:50:53 pm »
0

So you still buy knights with contraband by first playing horn of plenty to gain top one?
Depends on which card they named. Assuming they named the top knight, then yeah, you can still buy other knights if they happen to be on the top of the knights pile.
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LastFootnote

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2014, 05:11:33 pm »
0

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

I'm pretty sure not. I believe "can't buy" means you can't choose to buy it at all. Normally you can buy any card as long as you have enough Coins to pay for it. Contraband and Grand Market remove some of those options. Similarly, you can't play 4 Coppers and "buy" a Mint to get the on-buy effect and then just not gain it.
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Donald X.

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2014, 05:45:41 pm »
0

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

It depends on how Grand Market's restriction is supposed to work. Is it a when-would-buy effect? Same goes for Contraband. If course it doesn't matter, since nothing happens on when-would-buy, and there are no mandatory buys in the game.
I will tentatively say that Grand Market-with-copper-in-play and Contrabanded things are simply not choosable when buying.
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Jeebus

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2014, 05:59:58 pm »
0

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

I'm pretty sure not. I believe "can't buy" means you can't choose to buy it at all. Normally you can buy any card as long as you have enough Coins to pay for it. Contraband and Grand Market remove some of those options. Similarly, you can't play 4 Coppers and "buy" a Mint to get the on-buy effect and then just not gain it.

We're talking about a when-would-buy effect, so the buy wouldn't happen if you chose a Contraband'ed Mint, so you would not get the when-buy effect. As I said, there are no when-would-buy effects, so it doesn't matter in practice.
Of course you can buy a Mint and then not gain it because of Trader or Possession, still getting the when-buy effect.
(Anyway, Donald already answered that it's not a when-would-buy effect.)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 09:31:04 am by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2014, 02:21:31 am »
+1

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

It doesn't matter.

Suppose the answer is yes. In that case: you play your Copper, you've got $6 and one buy, and you choose to buy a Grand Market, and you fail at it. Since you failed at it, you haven't bought a Grand Market (or anything else). Thus you haven't used up your buy and haven't spent your $6, and may buy something else instead.
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Jeebus

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Re: gain prohibition with Knights
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2014, 10:25:33 am »
+1

Can you choose to buy a Grand Market when you have a Copper in play, and then fail at it?

It doesn't matter.

Suppose the answer is yes. In that case: you play your Copper, you've got $6 and one buy, and you choose to buy a Grand Market, and you fail at it. Since you failed at it, you haven't bought a Grand Market (or anything else). Thus you haven't used up your buy and haven't spent your $6, and may buy something else instead.

When you're in the Buy Phase and choosing to buy cards (or not), you can always just, you know, not buy the Grand Market, so in this situation I really can't see that it matters at all.

The only time it would matter, is if there existed a card instructing you to buy a card. Compare with gaining. Let's say you Upgrade a Copper and don't want a Poor House. You can use Trader and gain a Silver instead. As we know the original gain never happened. "When you would gain" the Poor House, "instead, gain a Silver." The gain was cancelled and something else happened instead (which happened to be another gain). Upgrade never gained you a card, but you used up the gain anyway, you don't have to gain anything per Upgrade's gain instruction now. Upgrade told you to gain a card, but didn't track whether you succeeded.

Suppose there's a card Shopping: "Buy a card costing up to $6" (allowing you to play Treasures a la Black Market).
Grand Market would effectively say, "If you have any Coppers in play, when you would buy Grand Market, instead, you buy nothing." So if you Golemed into Shopping, you could play Coppers, choose to buy Grand Market, and by the same logic as with Trader, cancel the buy without having to buy anything else.

What about the coins though? I guess they're not used up.

Anyway, there are no mandatory buys in Dominion. If there were, trying to gain a Grand Market could be a tactic if you're required to buy a card but don't want to. With the current ruling (Grand Market isn't even choosable) that would be impossible. But as there are no mandatory buys, it (still!) doesn't matter.
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