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Author Topic: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread  (Read 28113 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2013, 05:11:04 pm »
+2

Hey, it's a bit late, but is there still interest for the Stef - Awaclus match from the group phase? I forgot to record game 1 and another game that we played later, but I could still add commentaries for the rest.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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florrat

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2013, 05:53:34 pm »
0

Heya the Videos from my Match with Stef are uploaded. This time i commented in English so it should be understandable for everyone.

<video>
Thanks for uploading this in English. Your first game was amazing! I totally agreed with you when Stef bought the Potion. But after seeing the game it completely makes sense that Stef's strategy dominates here. Very instructive game to see!
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2.71828.....

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2013, 06:01:21 pm »
0

Heya the Videos from my Match with Stef are uploaded. This time i commented in English so it should be understandable for everyone.

<video>
Thanks for uploading this in English. Your first game was amazing! I totally agreed with you when Stef bought the Potion. But after seeing the game it completely makes sense that Stef's strategy dominates here. Very instructive game to see!
yeah, the English videos are more instructive, the German ones (with Google translating) are more humorous.
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florrat

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2013, 07:44:53 pm »
+1

@Qvist: Thanks for the video and the write-up, it was interesting to read and watch (maybe I'll do a write-up for my matches as well). In game 3 you indeed had some serious bad luck.

I disagree about your bad luck in game 6 though. You had a great opening (as you already noted yourself). Later in turn 15 you was very lucky again to draw a Nobles from SCSN's Margrave, so that you could play both Margraves with still an action left afterwards. And the bandit camp on your final turn was definitely a mistake. If you bought a Province, SCSN needed to get Province-Duchy-Duchy, and otherwise you would be in pretty good shape, especially when you could get one more Duchy.

Hey, I went to the finals without winning a single match ;)
I won the championship without winning a single match, try to beat that! ;D
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terminalCopper

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2013, 03:35:12 am »
+3

After two draws (RTT&Psyduck) I knew that, regardless the outcome of the game Qvist-SCSN, this final match will probably decide the world championship ... what a suspense!
Unfortunately, SCSN won 5-1, so I needed a kind of miracle against an opponent who has roughly the same iso-rating I have. It didn't show up - he only needed two games to ensure the title.

Onto  the games:

Game 1: 0-1
 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387137294683.txt (florrat wins)
We both go SpiceMerchant-Minions. I decided to open hamlet instead of silver, as hamlets synergize way better with minions, but that was probably too farsighted, as silver helps better to get them.

Game2: 0-2
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387138598151.txt (florrat wins)
Interesting board. I opened Salvager-Silver to get Witch-Urchin, my oppenent started with Salvager-Swindler and DameAnna/Silver on T3/4. His trashing concept proved to be more reliable; switching to vineyards didn't help me out.

Game3: 1-2
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387139511639.txt (terminalCopper wins)
florrat started with smithy/silver, I opened JunkDealer with an interesting engine on my mind: Golem->Scheme can provide +actions, there is +buy via baron, and later on, if my opponent goes smithy-bm, I can stop him with one pillage per turn.
Funnily, it went the other way round: My opponent started to build the engine, and as I began to see some speed problems the engine might have, I felt like BM would be faster. It was.

Game4: 2-2
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387140616144.txt (terminalCopper wins)
I don't like cultists, especially if my opponent gets 5-2. I tried to go for a silk road slog instead, and somehow ... it worked.

Game5: 2-3
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387141263363.txt (florrat wins)
One should never blame shuffle luck, but if on a potion heavy board both potions collide twice without money, basically that's all she wrote.

Game6: 3-3
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387142322632.txt (terminalCopper wins)
An obvious engine board with scrying pools/Apprentice/Market/WanderingMinistrel, supported by a nice finish option (get peddlers and graverob them). Probably, I was just luckier to set it up.


All in all: Congratulations, Netherlands!

You did way better than 1974, 1978 and 2010 :)
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2013, 04:36:52 am »
+1

You did way better than 1974, 1978 and 2010 :)

If we're going to play that game...



;)
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2013, 08:36:16 pm »
+2

My commentary on the games against SCSN. Video:

Thanks for recording the videos. Some comments on the games:

Game 1: You played this better than me. Opening Chapel/Baker with 2/5 on a board with Market Square still looks so awfully strong to me, but then I pretty much resign myself to not getting the Potion for a while, and University is also really strong here, so I'm still not sure what I should have done differently. Right now I'm leaning towards a Chapel/Potion open even with 2/5...

Game 2: This is an interesting board. Going for IGG/PS/Silk Roads is really really awful though. If you go that route I can just make Forager worth $8 without you being able to benefit from it due to your giant deck. 

The early game is straightforward, but where to go from there is the big question. I had really no idea what to do--upping Forager benefits you as well, and Forge has a bit of a fuel problem--but felt like getting a Forge, and when I'm confused I just go for what gives me the most options in the future and let the draws/my opponent's play decide which of them to exercise, so Quarry and Forge seemed like natural fits.

The idea behind the 2nd Quarry was to buy Forge fodder for "free", but unfortunately I was forced to trash one of them when they collided too early. I decided that hoping for duplicates to not collide just wasn't going to work, so that double-Quarry plan went out of the window. With Forager worth $3 now and $4 in the near future because I still had a duplicate Counterfeit, and seeing how you had just bought a Province, I figured the best play would be to just double Province and win the race for Provinces, especially with Forge giving me a big advantage and your Militia assisting me in not stalling.

Not Foraging the Militia sometime before the end-game was a definite mistake. Yes, the first Menagerie only cancels the Militia attack, but with me having 6 Menageries that's pretty irrelevant, and the important thing is that the Militia enables me to discard not only duplicates, but also cards that are likely to be duplicated after 1 or 2 activations (i.e. Provinces). Your T14 Militia play was completely unnecessary, as you could have gotten the Province without it, and it allowed me to send two of my 3 Provinces to the discard, thus ensuring me that I'd be drawing my deck.

And I think you either shouldn't have bought the 2nd Gold in the first place or Foraged it on T12 where the two Golds prevented you from activating a Menagerie (and would continue to bug you on subsequent turns). Besides Menagerie, the only card you don't mind having multiple copies of in your deck is Forager, as you can use one to trash the other when they collide.

Game 3: Yeah this was just terrible luck. Definitely discard the Gold over the Pearl Diver though, it doubles your changes of getting to the Wharfs.

Game 4: We already discussed this one a bit (more Silvers, less Warehouses), but having watched the video I saw you sometimes not even play a Warehouse in a hand where you had already reached $5. Sometimes that's the right play b.c. of deck management issues, but that was not the case here. Barring misclicks, it's impossible to end up with less than $5 after the Warehouse play, and you just deprive yourself of a free shot at $8.

Game 5: Trashing matters. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to get a T1 Doctor for $4 or go for Feast/Steward. I decided the 2nd option would be healthier because this particular Doctor often makes me sick.

Game 6: As mentioned by others you would probably have won this one by buying the penultimate Province. I do think the engine is quite a bit better than getting a million Golds (they clog your deck and thus limit you to mostly single Province turns), and that had you gone for double Bandit Camp over the Hoard you'd have decided that game right there. Due to your early Margrave and unfortunate draws I had a really slow start, and didn't have or felt like I didn't have the time to get my deck to the point where I'd be able to draw it with reasonable consistency (triple Scheme: HG, HG, BC).

It was a fun series for sure, and I'm obviously happy to have won :)
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florrat

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2013, 09:47:36 pm »
+3

Let me also comment on the games between me and terminalCopper.

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387137294683.txt (florrat wins)
I don't really see how Hamlet synergizes so well with Minion. Sure, the discarding doesn't hurt, but you're not really looking for +Actions and +Buys but for +Coins. I could understand opening Spice Merchant + Pawn (but even then it's not easy to reach $5), because I think Pawn synergizes much better with Minion than Hamlet. I think your second Spice Merchant was a mistake.

Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387138598151.txt (florrat wins)
I couldn't see how Vineyard could work here. Vineyard doesn't need very much support, but this was just too little. Only Salvager gives +Buy, but it is almost impossible to set up a deck where you can play one each turn. On the other hand, Knights + Swindler can easily lower the number of actions in a deck.


After game 2 terminalCopper made the remark "Congratulations with the championship" (or something like that). This completely confused me, because I hadn't looked at game points yet, so I was preparing for the fact that I needed to win 3 games. Oh well, it was a happy surprise (for me)


Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387139511639.txt (terminalCopper wins)
This was an interesting board. I knew the engine wouldn't be too strong, but I've been punished too often before for going BM while my opponent went engine. So this time I went for a Scheme-Golem-Smithy-Baron-Pillage engine. I probably shouldn't have trashed my Necropolis, because that was the only reliable way to get 2 actions. If I kept it, I could probably play most of my Golems pretty reliably, by topdecking Necropolis-Golem-Golem each turn. I also made some tactical errors at some points (when Golem revealed Junk Dealer + Smithy I played JD first, without a target to trash), and terminalCopper was way ahead before I could start greening.


Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387140616144.txt (terminalCopper wins)
I was lucky here to open 5/2 on a Cultist board. We both rushed for Cultist, but I won the Ruins split 6-4. After that I try to build up to Provinces, while terminalCopper goes for Silk Road. That worked out well for him, and he could finish with a very narrow win. I think his strategy was better.

Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387141263363.txt (florrat wins)
With 3 Potion-cost-cards it's hard to not open Potion, so I open Potion/Cellar with 5/2. I was VERY lucky that I could buy a familiar on turn 3 and turn 5, and after that my Cellar cycling guaranteed that I could play familiar more often than my opponent. I won the Curse split 7-3. During the game I thought this was mainly caused by his Familiars missing the reshuffle more often, but upon inspection of the log the main cause was the increased cycling given by my cellar (before the curses ran out, a familiar missed the refshuffle once for both of us). After that it was practically game over, because I was also able to get more universities than him. He had some unlucky hands like 2*Potion+Copper (I wouldn't have gotten a second potion in his position, but maybe it was a good idea with so many potion cost cards). This game was definitely decided by shuffle luck.

Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387142322632.txt (terminalCopper wins)
A very strong board with nonterminal virtual coins (Peddler, Market, Grand Market, Mystic). We both tried to get as much of possible of these while drawing with Scrying Pool. I think this game was again mostly decided by luck (if you don't agree, I'm very much interested in hearing what I could've done better).The first three cards I revealed from my deck to his Scrying Pool were Apprentice, Apprentice, Market. That does hurt quite a lot, and the Apprentice which I bought on turn 5 never collided with one of my Estates. And then terminalCopper could get his engine working earlier, which resulted in a positive feedback loop, which gave me no chance to catch up. (By the way, I think that your second Potion was a mistake, terminalCopper, and you would have benefited from buying an Apprentice. A few Scrying Pools can draw a complete deck when you've trashed half of your starting cards)

Thanks for the games!
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2013, 03:34:37 am »
+1

Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131215/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1387142322632.txt (terminalCopper wins)
A very strong board with nonterminal virtual coins (Peddler, Market, Grand Market, Mystic). We both tried to get as much of possible of these while drawing with Scrying Pool. I think this game was again mostly decided by luck (if you don't agree, I'm very much interested in hearing what I could've done better).

I wouldn't have gotten any Silvers here, they only clog your deck and you're not desperate to get a high coin cost card as soon as possible. On T2 I'd get a Moat and on T3 a Wandering Minstrel. Keep buying Moats for 2-3 and Minstrels for 4 unless you can buy a Peddler, get a Market for your first 5. With all the sifting (WM) and Draw (Moat/SP) you don't really care for an early Apprentice, so keep buying Markets for 5 at least until you can no longer expect that Market to get you a free Peddler.
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florrat

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2013, 04:39:34 am »
0

That actually makes sense. Thanks!
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