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Author Topic: In praise of a more industrious cheater  (Read 16646 times)

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ragingduckd

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In praise of a more industrious cheater
« on: November 08, 2013, 11:58:18 pm »
+24

Dominionologist, Goko's mysterious #2 ranked player, is a cheat.  But he's really a much finer class of cheat than we've ever had before.  I had to run some fancy-pants queries on the drunkensailor database to figure out what he's been doing.  I don't think I could have spotted it just by looking at his log search record.

Here's his scam:
  • Create a guest account and establish its rating.
  • Lose a bunch of games to your main account.
  • Repeat.
And here's the evidence (see attached files):
  • 30 of Dominionologists 450 pro games were played against four "superstar" guests.
  • These guests had all established very high ratings, mostly by clobbering mid-range players but also by winning a handful of games against hotshots like jog and Mic Q.
  • Dominiologist won every single one of those 30 games.
This is really much more sophisticated than what ooksoo did or what ottocar does.  It's only possible because Dominiologist is already a fairly strong player and because of some formula-defying nonsense of Goko's rating system (he's only #64 on Isotropish).  He also puts in a lot of extra effort to make it look good:
  • Over 90% of his games are real matches against real opponents, so the sham games don't stand out.

  • His guests behave plausibly.  He interleaves the games he plays as a guest with those he plays as himself and with the sham games they play against each other.  He spaces the guest's games out over days to make the pattern less obvious.

  • He actually plays out the sham games.  Now admittedly, some of them aren't exactly inspired, like this one where he and guest6443 both piledrive Ill-Gotten Gains and... um... Villages.  But it's still a damn sight less obvious than resigning to himself on Turn 1.
So kudos to Dominionologist for going the extra mile.  In these dark days when Goko no longer even pretends to care, it's nice to see that someone at least is putting in a little effort.
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ragingduckd

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 12:30:34 am »
+3

Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
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Kirian

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 01:08:54 am »
0

That is impressive.  Wow.
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eHalcyon

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2013, 04:58:36 am »
+2

If he's good enough to beat Mic Q, why not just earn his ranking legit?   :-\
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Warfreak2

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2013, 05:01:19 am »
+11

I beat Stef once, I'm not about to quit my job and go pro.
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soulnet

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2013, 06:06:14 am »
0

Maybe he has a script playing for guests.
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yed

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2013, 10:32:07 am »
+5

Maybe he has a script playing for guests.
That is definitelly possible, I used semi automatic playing for beating adventures.
Big money by just pressing F12 and fill all zaps by pressing F11. Still it took me 4 hours (while watching TV) and most of my coins to get all 3 unbuyable promos.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 10:33:55 am by yed »
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Polk5440

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2013, 06:04:40 pm »
+1

If he's good enough to beat Mic Q, why not just earn his ranking legit?   :-\

I can beat Mic Q, too, every once in a while. Winning occasionally doesn't make me once of the top 3 players, though.

He's probably a good player looking to pad his ranking for fun or bragging rights to his friends or something. Or maybe he just really wants a digital medal by his name. He couldn't earn a top 3 spot on his own.
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markusin

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 06:30:22 pm »
+3

I wonder if Dominionologist is aware that he's basically going the extra mile for nothing, given the state of Goko's maintenance right now.
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rrwoods

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 08:43:33 pm »
0

Haven't looked at what rating he's cheated himself to, so this may be moot, but: having a higher rating generally gets you games with better players. I had a rating around 5500 for a little while and now for some reason can't get out of my 4700-4800 rut, and not being able to join the 5k+ games is keeping the games I play less interesting. It's possible he was wanting those rating points just to get games with better players.
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DG

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 09:34:38 pm »
0

I'd been aware of this pyramid technique right from the very first discussion of isotropic rating manipulators and I'm guessing others were aware too (and we didn't publicize it of course). I'm a bit surprised that nobody had been discovered using it before as some manipulator would surely have tried it back on isotropic too, even though it might have needed a bigger pyramid.
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SCSN

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 11:19:10 am »
+2

Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1

I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way

1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never
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ragingduckd

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 03:41:21 am »
+12

Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1

I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way

1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never

4) The question is moot.  Goko will go out of business in 2014.
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Tables

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 01:01:49 pm »
+7

Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1

I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way

1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never

4) The question is moot.  Goko will go out of business in 2014.

I think it's great to see just how positive the community is about the only current place we can play Dominion Online. Well, really it's great to see people thinking they'll last even that long. There's still like 7 weeks left in this year for them to shut down, you know.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 04:24:11 pm »
+8

Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1

I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way

1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never

4) The question is moot.  Goko will go out of business in 2014.

I think it's great to see just how positive the community is about the only current place we can play Dominion Online. Well, really it's great to see people thinking they'll last even that long. There's still like 7 weeks left in this year for them to shut down, you know.

All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.
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LastFootnote

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2013, 04:49:40 pm »
+5

All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.

You guys keep saying this like isotropic's going to magically reappear once Goko goes away. That's not necessarily the case.

I like Goko just fine now. I hope they continue to improve. If they die, who knows when—if ever—we'll have another way to play Dominion online.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 05:11:25 pm by LastFootnote »
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Robz888

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2013, 04:52:10 pm »
0

I was liking Goko just fine, but now I feel like it's really slow all the time, and it's very hard to find high ranked opponents.
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Ozle

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2013, 04:53:59 pm »
+26

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2013, 04:59:15 pm »
+12

All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.

Although I dislike Goko, I feel like this is a little harsh and against the spirit of Christmas.  Rather, in the spirit of the 12 days of Christmas here is a reasonable list of things for Goko to do.

1.)  Fix management
2.)  Interact and respond to issues with the playerbase (e.g. cheaters)
3.)  Remove server instability
4.)  Allow all promos to be bought
5.)  Implement automatch
6.)  Provide a more cohesive lobby structure
7.)  Revamp game interface
8.)  Cards like Hamlet, JoaT, Urchin, Storeroom etc. need looking at for inconvenience
9.)  Devise a long-term business plan (they need money if they're going to stay afloat and it won't continue to come from Dominion)
10.)  Make gamelog easier to follow  (tab stuff, colorize it, anything would be better than their current efforts)
11.)  Allow users to have a friends list
12.)  Allow users to propose games to certain players

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LastFootnote

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2013, 05:10:04 pm »
+4

All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.

Although I dislike Goko, I feel like this is a little harsh and against the spirit of Christmas.  Rather, in the spirit of the 12 days of Christmas here is a reasonable list of things for Goko to do.

1.)  Fix management
2.)  Interact and respond to issues with the playerbase (e.g. cheaters)
3.)  Remove server instability
4.)  Allow all promos to be bought
5.)  Implement automatch
6.)  Provide a more cohesive lobby structure
7.)  Revamp game interface
8.)  Cards like Hamlet, JoaT, Urchin, Storeroom etc. need looking at for inconvenience
9.)  Devise a long-term business plan (they need money if they're going to stay afloat and it won't continue to come from Dominion)
10.)  Make gamelog easier to follow  (tab stuff, colorize it, anything would be better than their current efforts)
11.)  Allow users to have a friends list
12.)  Allow users to propose games to certain players

I like your list, but trying to sing it to the "meter" of 12 Days of Christmas doesn't work very well.  ;D
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 05:11:30 pm »
+18

FIIIIIIIVE IMPLEMENT AUTOMATCH!!!!!
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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 06:47:17 pm »
+2

I was liking Goko just fine, but now I feel like it's really slow all the time, and it's very hard to find high ranked opponents.
I was liking goko just fine, but then I missclicked myself into one of WW's old isotropic videos, and remembered just how terrible goko really is in comparison.
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blueblimp

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2013, 02:08:08 am »
+5

You guys keep saying this like isotropic's going to magically reappear once Goko goes away. That's not necessarily the case.
This is hypothetical (though becoming less hypothetical by the day!) but interesting to discuss, so let's walk through this scenario.

I have no knowledge of Goko's financials, but at this point they may be essentially all-in on whatever they launch next to show some success. Let's assume it doesn't do well enough to justify their continued existence.

Then, because they have no subscription revenue, the Goko Dominion servers will shut down at some point. Keeping them running would be pretty expensive, if only because somebody would need to be paid to maintain them. Goko Dominion customers would be unable to continue playing on the service.

Then something would happen with the license. Since I don't know what the contract is like, let's assume that RGG and Donald X have enough control to allow isotropic provided that whoever receives the license doesn't launch a desktop online Dominion themselves.

I figure the new license-holder would not be eager to implement desktop online Dominion. For one thing, paid customers of Goko Dominion would be reluctant to pay yet again for essentially the same service. Even if they did, the failure of Goko Dominion (in this hypothetical where it did fail) would suggest that there isn't enough of a market there to be worth serving.

So, I expect the license-holder would be more inclined to make implementations of Dominion that are either offline, mobile, or both. That would leave a void where desktop online Dominion used to be. In this situation, I think paying customers of Goko Dominion (like myself) would be justified in feeling a little done wrong if alternative implementations of desktop online Dominion were forbidden. For that reason, I think RGG and Donald X would give the OK for isotropic Dominion to re-launch if dougz wanted to re-launch it.

Would dougz re-launch isotropic Dominion if allowed? I have no idea, but since he's actively developing isotropic Innovation, the server at least is maintained, so it's not inconceivable that he might take on maintaining isotropic Dominion again.

But let's suppose dougz didn't have enough time or interest to re-launch isotropic Dominion. In that case, I think it'd be just a matter of time until some programmer (with lots of free time, with no online Dominion to play!) made an alternative server. Private servers like that exist already, I think. They wouldn't be as good as isotropic at first, true.

Conclusion: if Goko went down, it's fairly likely that isotropic Dominion would re-appear. If not, the second-most-likely scenario is some other free online Dominion to take its place.
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ipofanes

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2013, 06:49:38 am »
0

Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009

Funnily, I cannot read this message thanks to the board maintainer's quibble with the national music copyright clearing site.
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SCSN

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Re: In praise of a more industrious cheater
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2013, 06:53:46 am »
+5

Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009

Fuck you lol, you really got my hopes up :(
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