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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia  (Read 37173 times)

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jpople02

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm »
0

So what's the threshold for making it into the next round of voting?  I assume it'll be the 5 that have 10+ votes?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #101 on: December 10, 2013, 08:45:49 pm »
+1

Not much love for Pariah :(

The comments were about how it was off theme, but I designed it specifically around the idea of variety between players. "Gain a 6" is probably overpowered at 5, but a curser with a "wash" is not. Thus, to get the most out of the card, you want to gain a card that nobody else wants. That's where the name comes from.

Thematically, you're being punished (cursed) for copying the other player, even though copying is often a good deal.

I wanted to make a card that rewarded variety in a different place. Deck (fairgrounds, harvest), hand (menagerie) and play area (HoP) have been explored well enough, so I thought "variety between players/of strategies" was an interesting area. A card that discourages mirror matches. Is pariah that card? I don't know.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2013, 09:19:21 pm »
0

Not much love for Pariah :(

The comments were about how it was off theme, but I designed it specifically around the idea of variety between players. "Gain a 6" is probably overpowered at 5, but a curser with a "wash" is not. Thus, to get the most out of the card, you want to gain a card that nobody else wants. That's where the name comes from.

Thematically, you're being punished (cursed) for copying the other player, even though copying is often a good deal.

I wanted to make a card that rewarded variety in a different place. Deck (fairgrounds, harvest), hand (menagerie) and play area (HoP) have been explored well enough, so I thought "variety between players/of strategies" was an interesting area. A card that discourages mirror matches. Is pariah that card? I don't know.

How does it discourage a mirror match?  You play Pariah and gain something.  Now I have a choice to gain the same thing, but with a Curse attached.  This actually encourages a mirror match because now I have an opportunity to gain the same card you did.  If I choose not to gain the card and curse, it doesn't mean that I have to play a different strategy.  On my turn, I can still play a Pariah myself and gain the same card you did.

Perhaps the card would be closer to your intention if it encouraged others to gain a different card.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2013, 12:22:38 am »
+5

Not much love for Pariah :(

It's uh

well named then
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2013, 09:09:51 pm »
0

Not much love for Pariah :(

The comments were about how it was off theme, but I designed it specifically around the idea of variety between players. "Gain a 6" is probably overpowered at 5, but a curser with a "wash" is not. Thus, to get the most out of the card, you want to gain a card that nobody else wants. That's where the name comes from.

Thematically, you're being punished (cursed) for copying the other player, even though copying is often a good deal.

I wanted to make a card that rewarded variety in a different place. Deck (fairgrounds, harvest), hand (menagerie) and play area (HoP) have been explored well enough, so I thought "variety between players/of strategies" was an interesting area. A card that discourages mirror matches. Is pariah that card? I don't know.

How does it discourage a mirror match?  You play Pariah and gain something.  Now I have a choice to gain the same thing, but with a Curse attached.  This actually encourages a mirror match because now I have an opportunity to gain the same card you did.  If I choose not to gain the card and curse, it doesn't mean that I have to play a different strategy.  On my turn, I can still play a Pariah myself and gain the same card you did.

Perhaps the card would be closer to your intention if it encouraged others to gain a different card.

The onus is on the user to pick a card the other players don't want, lest they get to have a faster version of their strategy for free. Admittedly with some cards the curse will have a disproportionately high effect, making it just a gainer, but every play will involve considering the other players.

I considered something like "gain 2 cards costing up to $4 each, each other player gains a card costing up to $4 that you didn't gain" but these cards inevitably have lots of problems, particularly running out piles. Those ideas are pretty well worn on these forums. It also doesn't encourage uniqueness from the person who buys the card.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2013, 01:37:39 am »
0

Will there be a second round to vote or is this the end-result?
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2013, 10:47:22 pm »
0

Will there be a second round to vote or is this the end-result?

There are 2 cards tied with 15, and one at 14 votes. My guess is that there will be a second vote at some point.
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2013, 03:29:55 am »
0

Yeah, there's no reason to believe it'll be any different than Intrigue. Presumably the second ballot will go up when the entries for Guilds and Alchemy get posted.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2013, 11:36:38 am »
+1

Yes, there will be a second round. I've been busy, but also dragging my feet a bit. Compiling results in a spreadsheet is the most tedious part of these contests. Maybe Qvist can sympathize.  :D  I'll try to get the initial results and the next poll up soonish.
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dghunter79

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2013, 09:32:00 pm »
+4

Yes, there will be a second round. I've been busy, but also dragging my feet a bit. Compiling results in a spreadsheet is the most tedious part of these contests. Maybe Qvist can sympathize.  :D  I'll try to get the initial results and the next poll up soonish.

Let someone else help you with the tedious part.

Matt_Arnold

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2013, 09:38:07 am »
+2

Yes, there will be a second round. I've been busy, but also dragging my feet a bit. Compiling results in a spreadsheet is the most tedious part of these contests. Maybe Qvist can sympathize.  :D  I'll try to get the initial results and the next poll up soonish.
Let someone else help you with the tedious part.
Seriously, anyone who says "this is too big a job to do in a timely manner" is failing to delegate. Effective people delegate, delegate, delegate. Thank you for all you do, LastFootnote! You don't have to do it alone. Tons of volunteers would jump at the job.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2013, 10:56:05 am »
0

Yes, there will be a second round. I've been busy, but also dragging my feet a bit. Compiling results in a spreadsheet is the most tedious part of these contests. Maybe Qvist can sympathize.  :D  I'll try to get the initial results and the next poll up soonish.
Let someone else help you with the tedious part.
Seriously, anyone who says "this is too big a job to do in a timely manner" is failing to delegate. Effective people delegate, delegate, delegate. Thank you for all you do, LastFootnote! You don't have to do it alone. Tons of volunteers would jump at the job.

I appreciate that, guys, but compiling the information to hand off to somebody is just as much work as compiling it to post here. Anyhow, new poll up momentarily. Alchemy and Guilds polls to follow later in the day (I have yet to compile those cards).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2013, 11:08:50 am »
0

Results and new poll are up! Now to compile the Alchemy and Guilds ballots.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2013, 11:26:20 am »
+2

Are authors going to submit lobbying, explanatory posts like last time?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2013, 11:30:03 am »
0

Are authors going to submit lobbying, explanatory posts like last time?
Oh, yes! Thanks for the reminder.

Authors of the top 5, please do submit a blurb about your card if you have the time! Last round it was very informative.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 11:44:42 am »
0

Commentary from the author of Field

Quote
Field
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one of each differently named card revealed into your hand. Discard the rest.

I thought of the card in Cornucopia which nobody uses. This is, I think, Harvest. Why? Because in decks where you can use it (most times engines), it mostly gives $3, which is not so cool for an action card costing $5. So how to change it to make it more useful? Let's make the same with +cards. In engines +cards are cooler than +coins, so it is more useful. As I think it will give +3 cards most of the time, it is just a gambling-Smithy, so it has to cost $4.

Now I think we could strengthen it a bit (e.g. +1 buy), because maybe it gives a little bit less than +3 cards on average, especially in the beginning. But we can do this after it has won ;-)

I know there are some other terminal-draw cards yet, that won on the other contests, but I hope this won't block you from voting for Field, if you like the card.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:58:42 pm by LastFootnote »
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Matt_Arnold

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2013, 12:12:11 pm »
+1

Yes, there will be a second round. I've been busy, but also dragging my feet a bit. Compiling results in a spreadsheet is the most tedious part of these contests. Maybe Qvist can sympathize.  :D  I'll try to get the initial results and the next poll up soonish.
Let someone else help you with the tedious part.
Seriously, anyone who says "this is too big a job to do in a timely manner" is failing to delegate. Effective people delegate, delegate, delegate. Thank you for all you do, LastFootnote! You don't have to do it alone. Tons of volunteers would jump at the job.
I appreciate that, guys, but compiling the information to hand off to somebody is just as much work as compiling it to post here. Anyhow, new poll up momentarily. Alchemy and Guilds polls to follow later in the day (I have yet to compile those cards).
Here's how to do it.

1. Create a new f.ds account just for the contest.
    All posts to f.ds will be done from that, rather than from your own account.
    All submissions are made as instant messages to that account.
2. Create a blank Google Spreadsheet where all spreadsheet work will be done.
3. Give access to log in to the f.ds account and the Google spreadsheet to everyone who administrates the contest.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2013, 12:45:16 pm »
0

Commentary from the author of Scarecrow

Quote
Scarecrow
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +2 Actions. Reveal your hand. Discard duplicate cards one at a time until you have no duplicate cards in hand.

Scarecrow is a high-skill, high-reward card. Its benefit is that it's a really cheap Leveled Up City, always. The drawback is steep, though: You discard all your non-uniques. In practice, this probably causes you to pitch a few Coppers if you're playing it early in the game and kills your purchasing power. Not very good, don't open with this!

Of course, there are a lot of times where pitching all your extras is okay. The synergy with Menagerie is obvious, but Scarecrow should also work decently well with any draw-to-X engine (Library, Watchtower, etc.). In general, the card is a cheap engine lubricant, giving you a Village plus Lab effect for super cheap, which hopefully is enough for you to dig that Smithy out of your draw pile. Scarecrow gets your engine going, ideally, so you can re-draw all the stuff it made you discard. Then, once, you've drawn most of your deck, don't play this! Such a penalty.

Anyway, it encourages variety by steeply penalizing lack of variety, and it should be quite strong but hard to play optimally. Glad it was well received!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:58:22 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2013, 04:58:04 pm »
0

Commentary from the author of Storyteller

Quote
Storyteller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. If this is the first time you played a Storyteller this turn, +1 Action.

While this is in play, when you play an Action card that you don't already have a copy of in play, +1 Action.

Clarification: The first Storyteller you play only gives you +1 Action, not +2 Actions, because it wasn't in play when you played it.

The basic idea of Storyteller is a village that lets you play one of each action card, but no more than that. Though simple in concept, it is tricky to implement.

One concern is that it can stack to generate a lot of actions. If you have two Storytellers in play, playing one new action card generates two extra actions. It gets better if you have even more Storytellers in play. Since it functions as a village, you would want a bunch of Storytellers anyway. To keep it from getting out of hand, I made Storyteller terminal after its first play. That makes it harder to stack and adds some tension in the gameplay. You want enough Storytellers that they can support your extra terminals, but you don't want too many because they are junky after the first.

I think that Storyteller would encourage players to build different decks and strategies than are currently played. Many strategies focus on using just one or two payload cards. Storyteller wants you to use a variety of terminal payloads instead. It can also allow cantrips to become one-time villages.

On theme, I chose the name "Storyteller" because it kind of parallels Wandering Minstrel as another person-village. Both entertain groups of people. Storyteller rewards variety and creativity, just as many of the best stories come from a wild imagination. A storyteller also fits right in with the "harvest celebration" setting of Cornucopia.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2013, 05:22:02 pm »
0

Commentary from the author of Showman

Quote
Showman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Reveal a card from your hand, then reveal the top card of your deck. If they don't match, +1 Card and +$1.

For some reason I totally forgot that I had submitted this. Like not a single recollection that I had submitted a card for Cornucopia. I only realized when I was sending in my card for Alchemy. I voted for my own card completely without bias because of this, which was a good sign I guess.

Anyway, the main thing behind the card is that there isn't really a Peddler variant in Cornucopia. Most expansions have one or more, but there definitely could be one based around variety. By revealing a card from your hand, then checking the top card, it means it'll mostly be a dud at the start of the game, but it would become simply Peddler quite fast. This was a concern for some, but I think it's not too crazy at $3. It's great if you get that unique card with your Showmen, but if you don't you just have Ruined Villages. In BM it's pretty bad, and in Engines you'll probably have a bunch of Villages and Smithy's or something, so variety isn't huge in those decks. Throne and KC are great cards, but still need to be paired up with something good. Throne Room Village is only good if you have terminals, and Showman is only good if it's paired up with a card you don't have a lot of.

There are some solutions I thought of, such as changing what you don't get (Like it could be terminal if it whiffs, like Conspirators) Again something could be figured out if it wins. Please vote for the variation mechanic, and not for the power level problems this may have.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2013, 05:22:51 pm »
0

Commentary from the author of Showman

Quote
Harvest Queen
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Set aside any number of differently named Action cards from your hand. Play them in any order.

The idea for Harvest Queen was pretty easy to come up with, and it should be clear what it's meant to be - it's the Throne Room of Cornucopia. Well, maybe a little more like a Golem or a Herald, but the idea was always that it would fill the "cards that play other cards" niche.

Originally, I had it that you chose 3 unique cards from your hand, and had to choose the order to play them before resolving any effects, but feedback told me this was too weak (and maybe a bit too complicated), so it got changed to picking any number of unique cards, and choose them one at a time to resolve. Functionally it won't make a lot of difference most of the time, but it also simplifies things a little and I'm a huge fan of making cards as simple as possible (although there's a lower limit to how simple cards like this can get, as you will discover when you Harvest Queen your Harvest Queen).

Thematically, I did search around for a suitable name for a while, even after I'd come across the idea of the harvest queen, if only to avoid confusion with Harvest. In the end, though, it just works so well - as well as fitting in the Throne Room/King's Court naming pattern, the Harvest Queen is a symbolic character at some harvest festivals (which would make an even more confusing name for a card) who's meant to be the embodiment of the gods or somesuch, and can't you just imagine her giving her blessing to the various workers to help them go about their business?
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2013, 05:56:25 pm »
+1

Commentary from the author of Harvest Queen

Quote
Harvest Queen
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Set aside any number of differently named Action cards from your hand. Play them in any order.

The idea for Harvest Queen was pretty easy to come up with, and it should be clear what it's meant to be - it's the Throne Room of Cornucopia. Well, maybe a little more like a Golem or a Herald, but the idea was always that it would fill the "cards that play other cards" niche.

Originally, I had it that you chose 3 unique cards from your hand, and had to choose the order to play them before resolving any effects, but feedback told me this was too weak (and maybe a bit too complicated), so it got changed to picking any number of unique cards, and choose them one at a time to resolve. Functionally it won't make a lot of difference most of the time, but it also simplifies things a little and I'm a huge fan of making cards as simple as possible (although there's a lower limit to how simple cards like this can get, as you will discover when you Harvest Queen your Harvest Queen).

Thematically, I did search around for a suitable name for a while, even after I'd come across the idea of the harvest queen, if only to avoid confusion with Harvest. In the end, though, it just works so well - as well as fitting in the Throne Room/King's Court naming pattern, the Harvest Queen is a symbolic character at some harvest festivals (which would make an even more confusing name for a card) who's meant to be the embodiment of the gods or somesuch, and can't you just imagine her giving her blessing to the various workers to help them go about their business?

This is commentary on Harvest Queen, not Showman. ctrl+c ctrl+v
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 06:04:58 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2013, 06:05:24 pm »
0

This is commentary on Harvest Queen, not Showman. ctrl+c ctrl+v

Fixed! Thanks for catching that.
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ConMan

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #123 on: December 19, 2013, 06:27:05 pm »
+1

This is a tough choice. Like I think I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of the complexity of Scarecrow, but all the others have a nice combination of simple wording, interesting effect, and good theme (and look, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Scarecrow, I just don't personally like it). If I didn't vote for all of them in the first round, I certainly should have.

I do disagree with Showman's creator's comment that there's no Peddler variant in Cornucopia - Tournament is technically a Peddler variant in the early game, even if the main mechanic of it isn't really the Peddler but the Black Market variant aspect.

I think Scarecrow is a little lower risk than its creator makes it out to be - of course you can't use it effectively in the early game, but later on it has enough cycling as well as the Actions necessary to really benefit a well-designed engine, especially if there's a card like Menagerie (or even Library or Watchtower, in a pinch) to counter-balance the discard effect.

Actually, pretty much all the cards are really nice engine enablers, especially in decks where you build up a bit of variety in the cards (or in the case of Field and Showman, some deck inspection to set them up). If my main criterion is "Would adding this card to a Kingdom make it more interesting to play?" then I think all of these succeed because I'd consider buying just about all of them, but not in a Rebuild kind of "if you don't buy this you lose" way.
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2013, 06:30:03 pm »
+1

This is commentary on Harvest Queen, not Showman. ctrl+c ctrl+v

Fixed! Thanks for catching that.

Harvest Queen blurb still says it's from the author of Showman.
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