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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia  (Read 26230 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #125 on: December 19, 2013, 06:43:17 pm »
+1

This is commentary on Harvest Queen, not Showman. ctrl+c ctrl+v

Fixed! Thanks for catching that.

Harvest Queen blurb still says it's from the author of Showman.

Maybe the author of Showman wanted to comment anonymously on Harvest Queen.

My thoughts on the top five:

Quote
Field
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one of each differently named card revealed into your hand. Discard the rest.

This is my favorite, and probably the only one I'll vote for.  First, it fits very nicely into Cornucopia, it nails the diversity theme as a terminal drawer, which Cornucopia needs.  Remember we are voting based on how the cards fit into their respective expansions, not how the contest winners fit together as a whole.  It's very simple and elegant, and I think fits the $4 price point nicely.  The main concern is that it overshadows Harvest (+card is usually "better" than +coin, and Field is cheaper), but I think that's more just an illustration of how weak Harvest is and that it really didn't need to be printed as it is in the first place.

Quote
Storyteller
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. If this is the first time you played a Storyteller this turn, +1 Action.

While this is in play, when you play an Action card that you don't already have a copy of in play, +1 Action.

Clarification: The first Storyteller you play only gives you +1 Action, not +2 Actions, because it wasn't in play when you played it.

I like Storyteller, it's a unique concept, and I can't think of any problems with the current wording, which is good considering how whacky the concept is.  Still the wording is a little clunky, and I'm not sure it would be exciting in comparison to other Villages.  I think it's probably good balance-wise, and it's interesting enough that I would be happy if it won.

Quote
Scarecrow
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +2 Actions. Reveal your hand. Discard duplicate cards one at a time until you have no duplicate cards in hand.

I'm not sure what to think of this card, but it just doesn't feel right to me.  First, I think +2 cards, +2 actions is not the best vanilla bonus for it.  In the best case scenario, it's a level 2 City which is obviously fantastic for $3, but the best case scenario is really, really rare.  +2 cards, +2 actions, discard a card is also very good for a $3 card, but the lack of control over what you discard really hurts it.  +2 cards, +2 actions, discard two cards is Inn without the on-gain, which is supposedly decent at $4, but this is a lot worse than that because you have no control over what you discard.  In fact if you just discarded random cards it might as well be Necropolis.  I think discarding duplicates is probably generally worse than discarding random cards.  Discarding more than two cards is pretty bad.  I suspect most of the time you'll discard at least two cards, so if nothing else it's super-situational.  I think I would like it better if it gave coin rather than cards, maybe adjusting the number of actions it gives as well.  I guess the biggest concern I have is that it will be anti-fun, making you discard lots of stuff all the time.  The thing it has going for it I think is how it fits into the set.  The combo with Menagerie is fun, Young Witch, Horse Traders, and Hamlet already have you discarding cards anyway, and Hunting Party gives you a diverse hand.

Quote
Showman
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Reveal a card from your hand, then reveal the top card of your deck. If they don't match, +1 Card and +$1.

First off, the author mentioned that Cornucopia doesn't have a Peddler variant.  It does, Tournament, which is actually a pretty good reason to not want this in Cornucopia (two Peddlers in a small set is a lot, especially since they both have the hit or miss on +1 card, +$1 mechanic).  The bonus can be changed though, so that's not a big concern.  I think my main problem with this is that it activates too easily to be interesting, to the point where it's just frustrating when it misses.  At the beginning it's a little tougher to activate but still not too bad.  If you reveal Estate you usually have a pretty good chance of activating it, and it's easier with deck-tracking.  It gets even easier as the game goes on.  I don't think being easy to activate makes it too strong, a $3 Peddler that occasionally misses seems reasonable, but I think it will just be frustrating to miss since it won't happen so often, and will usually happen regardless of whether you made the "right" reveal.

Quote
Harvest Queen
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Set aside any number of differently named Action cards from your hand. Play them in any order.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, or if this card is just really weak.  I think it would rarely be better than +3 actions, which is probably fine (but uninteresting) at $3 or $4.  At $5 I think I would only pick one up on a very strong engine board with no other villages.  Maybe I'm way off or maybe I'm just missing something, I don't know.  It just seems really weak to me.  I like how it interacts with draw-up-to-X cards though.  Maybe there are some other clever uses for it I'm missing?  Also, having to set the cards aside is a little awkward, especially since it can interrupt itself to set aside more cards, presumably in a different pile.  I don't think there's anyway with official Dominion cards to get two different set-aside or revealed "zones" to exist at the same time.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #126 on: December 19, 2013, 08:48:06 pm »
0

I don't think there's anyway with official Dominion cards to get two different set-aside or revealed "zones" to exist at the same time.

Well, Island is the first thing that comes to mind. Also Haven, which a less cheap example.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #127 on: December 20, 2013, 05:24:25 pm »
0

I'm not going to comment much on each of the cards up for voting.  Nothing new to add, really.  I think Showman is the only one I didn't vote for in the first round, and that's only because I find it a little boring.  I think it's solid enough anyway though.  I think Field, Storyteller and Scarecrow are all neat.  I like Harvest Queen too, though I like Storyteller just a bit more.
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #128 on: December 26, 2013, 09:29:40 pm »
+1

Bumping because Storyteller

Congrats to the winning card! I was on Team Scarecrow myself, but I really liked this card as well.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #129 on: December 26, 2013, 09:40:58 pm »
0

Bumping because Storyteller

Congrats to the winning card! I was on Team Scarecrow myself, but I really liked this card as well.

Huh.  Wasn't Storyteller bottom of the five in round one?
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2013, 01:16:26 am »
+1

I think Storyteller did the least well round 1 (of the 5 here), but I guess people changed their minds.

Showman was my card. I really didn't expect it to do this well, but I'm glad it did. It really was just a simple idea off the top of my head.
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #131 on: December 27, 2013, 02:52:19 am »
0

First I want to congratulate the designer of Storyteller.

Second I want to tell you the Secret History of my Field:
Most things I said in the commentary yet:
Commentary from the author of Field

Quote
Field
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put one of each differently named card revealed into your hand. Discard the rest.

I thought of the card in Cornucopia which nobody uses. This is, I think, Harvest. Why? Because in decks where you can use it (most times engines), it mostly gives $3, which is not so cool for an action card costing $5. So how to change it to make it more useful? Let's make the same with +cards. In engines +cards are cooler than +coins, so it is more useful. As I think it will give +3 cards most of the time, it is just a gambling-Smithy, so it has to cost $4.

Now I think we could strengthen it a bit (e.g. +1 buy), because maybe it gives a little bit less than +3 cards on average, especially in the beginning. But we can do this after it has won ;-)

I know there are some other terminal-draw cards yet, that won on the other contests, but I hope this won't block you from voting for Field, if you like the card.
To be honest, for this card I had not much time to design, because I nearly forgot the deadline, so I designed a card, that is a mix of two existing cards (Smithy and Harvest). I didn't thought that this would be enough, but I'm glad, that you liked it. I personnaly like the card too (which is not the case for all my cards), because it is simple and (I think) usefull in most games.

And third I want to thank you for all the votes you gave my card. I would be happy if you vote for my other cards too ;-)
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #132 on: December 27, 2013, 04:06:36 am »
0

Okay, so for a while I've been wanting to talk about my card, Outcast.  (I'm never really sure if it's good to talk about your non-finalist card when there is still an open poll among the finalists.)

Quote
Outcast
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
+1 Buy. +$1. Each other player discards any number of cards, then reveals his hand. Each player who reveals duplicate cards gains a Copper.

So, I think as it is it's pretty bad for a number of reasons, but it took me a lot of thought to get there and I think the lesson to be learned is that the concept just can't be done in a balanced way.  (Actually, as it turns out I think it works as a Looter, giving out Ruins instead of Copper, but then it's no longer a Cornucopia card.)  It started off literally identical to Old Gaffer (+$2 curser, reveal Menag-hand as bane), but priced at $5 instead of $4.  The concept was, "What if there was an attack card that punished players for lack of diversity, instead of rewarding them for diversity".  It couldn't be a trashing attack, how would that work.  It couldn't be a spy-type attack either, and it could try to be a discard attack, like "each other player reveals his hand and discards until he has no duplicates", but that's just super brutal, and probably has pin potential.  So, it would have to be a junking attack, which naturally wants to be a curser, which is how I got to Old Gaffer.  I had it priced at $5 because that's just too strong at $4.  It didn't feel quite right that the bane would probably not activate ~80+% of the time (having five uniques is pretty rare, right?).  So then I got the idea to combine the brutal discard attack with a junking attack, so they would have the option and it would be easier to block the junking, but would still be an attack most of the time since they would have to discard cards (usually) when the junking missed.  Still, with +$2 and giving out Curses with a bane at $5, it felt too similar to Mountebank.  It couldn't draw cards without looking like Witch or Torturer, it couldn't be non-terminal, and a vanilla bonus of just +buys is pretty lame, so I just couldn't find a way to balance it at $5.  Plus, Cornucopia really doesn't want another curser.  So it really had to give out something other than Curses, and Copper is the next junkiest thing (Estate junking has problems even if it can be blocked; Copper not so much).  So then there was a question of what vanilla bonus to give it and how to price it, and in the end I screwed that up pretty bad, it was just way too weak at $4.  But I think that a Copper junker is awkward in Cornucopia anyway, and I was worried that if it was anywhere near dominating, it would be too un-Cornucopia-ish, so I erred on the weak side.  Cornucopia celebrates diversity, and now there's this card filling you up with what was already the most common card in your deck.

So if only Cornucopia came with a pile of Ruins, I think that this would actually be a pretty good fit as a Looter (again, sticking another junking attack in Cornucopia might be a little much, but I think Looting Outcast is interesting enough to be okay).  If it's a Looter, then the junking is stronger than Copper-junking, so that it's more okay power-wise; the vanilla bonus and price could be tweaked without overlapping with other cards, since there are only two other attacking Looters.  But more importantly, it also has this cool thing where it actually junks you with diversity, which means that your deck is now more Cornucopia-ish, and also that you'll have an easier time blocking future plays of Outcast.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #133 on: December 27, 2013, 04:16:10 am »
+1

Congrats to Storyteller! I'm quite happy it won, I did like it better than the rest, except for my card, which was...

Quote
Scarecrow
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. +2 Actions. Reveal your hand. Discard duplicate cards one at a time until you have no duplicate cards in hand.
[/quote]

I was glad to see Scarecrow get a lot of love. It was definitely the card I designed with which I was happiest (and marks I think my fourth 2nd place finish in a Design Card Contest). I would be more devastated if my Prize, Wizard, hadn't already won--at least I win something!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #134 on: December 27, 2013, 06:08:47 pm »
+1

it could try to be a discard attack, like "each other player reveals his hand and discards until he has no duplicates", but that's just super brutal, and probably has pin potential.

The solution to this is to soften the attack somehow.  I would suggest something like:

(Vanilla bonus of some sort)
Each other player reveals his hand, discards until no duplicate remains, and draws until he has 3 cards in hand.

If you have a diverse hand, then the discard attack might not do anything to you at all (other than revealing your hand).  If you have no diversity, then it can get a little worse than Militia (in that you lose potentially strong cards -- you don't get to choose what to discard -- and draw back average cards).

Another take on it could be something like:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and chooses one: he discards until no duplicates remain; or he discards a card that you choose.

In this case, you can let yourself be Pillaged if discarding all duplicates would pin you.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2013, 06:24:14 pm »
0

it could try to be a discard attack, like "each other player reveals his hand and discards until he has no duplicates", but that's just super brutal, and probably has pin potential.

The solution to this is to soften the attack somehow.  I would suggest something like:

(Vanilla bonus of some sort)
Each other player reveals his hand, discards until no duplicate remains, and draws until he has 3 cards in hand.

If you have a diverse hand, then the discard attack might not do anything to you at all (other than revealing your hand).  If you have no diversity, then it can get a little worse than Militia (in that you lose potentially strong cards -- you don't get to choose what to discard -- and draw back average cards).

Another take on it could be something like:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and chooses one: he discards until no duplicates remain; or he discards a card that you choose.

In this case, you can let yourself be Pillaged if discarding all duplicates would pin you.

I actually had written down the first thing you mention, but I didn't think I could make it work.  Let's say you have a hand of 2 Coppers, 2 Estates, and a Curse.  Then you can discard Curse, Estate, Estate, Copper, and then draw up to three, since it doesn't specify that you have to discard duplicates, and you can take advantage of the "draw up to" afterwards.  You could say "Each other player reveals his hand, discards duplicates from it until he has no duplicates, and draws up to 3 cards in hand", but that sounds awkward.  The other thing is that I'm not sure how well it punishes you for lack of diversity, since you can actually benefit from a more uniform hand (a hand of 1 Copper and 4 Provinces is better than a hand of like, Copper, Estate, Duchy, Province, Fairgrounds).

The second idea is pretty interesting though and maybe the best way to make the concept work as a pure discarding attack.  It would have been a nice fit in Cornucopia as well, which has Followers as the only discarding attack.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2013, 06:33:05 pm »
+1

Hmm, interesting point about discarding non-duplicates to get an advantage.  One other variation would be:

Each other player reveals his hand, discards until no duplicates remain, and draws 1 card.

Now you can go ahead and discard extra things if you want, but you don't get any special benefit from it.  However, it also benefits opponents who are diverse.  If they had a hand of 5 different cards, they end up drawing a sixth.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2014, 01:52:23 am »
+1

Who's the author of Storyteller?  I don't think it was ever revealed in this thread or else I missed it.  I'm adding it to my list of fan-made cards that I want to playtest at some point and I make a note of the author of each card in the list.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 07:05:23 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #138 on: January 07, 2014, 03:57:19 pm »
+3

Who's the author of Storyteller?  I don't think it was ever revealed in this thread or else I missed it.  I'm adding it to my list of fan-made cards that I want to playtest at some point and I make a note of the author or each card in the list.

It's me!  I have been too lazy to write up anything more about it.  For now I should just say, hooray and thanks to those who commented on the card, good or bad. :)
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #139 on: January 07, 2014, 04:19:10 pm »
0

Who's the author of Storyteller?  I don't think it was ever revealed in this thread or else I missed it.  I'm adding it to my list of fan-made cards that I want to playtest at some point and I make a note of the author or each card in the list.

It's me!  I have been too lazy to write up anything more about it.  For now I should just say, hooray and thanks to those who commented on the card, good or bad. :)

Shoulda known... the Fan Card Master himself!
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2014, 03:34:43 pm »
0

Who's the author of Storyteller?  I don't think it was ever revealed in this thread or else I missed it.  I'm adding it to my list of fan-made cards that I want to playtest at some point and I make a note of the author or each card in the list.

It's me!  I have been too lazy to write up anything more about it.  For now I should just say, hooray and thanks to those who commented on the card, good or bad. :)
You made Storyteller, eHalcyon? Congratulations! I hope the others are aware of this now.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2014, 01:20:51 pm »
0

Quick note on Bounty (my card):

I came up with it on the fly. I think Tribute really belongs with Cornucopia, so I made a self-Tribute. The bonus for flipping your own Victory cards has to be less than flipping your opponents' victory cards, hence, only +1 card. Small bonus for Curse since +buy is always nice and then there are no whiffs.

My guess is that this self-Tribute would be stronger than actual Tribute, not weaker as many people guessed because there is the ability to better set it up and you have more control over the type of cards you add to your own deck.

I am not surprised it got few votes -- it really was more of a benchmark card. SOMEONE (i.e., eHalcyon) was bound to come up with something better.... but just in case, I submitted anyway.
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2014, 05:39:14 pm »
+1

Quick note on Bounty (my card):

I came up with it on the fly. I think Tribute really belongs with Cornucopia, so I made a self-Tribute. The bonus for flipping your own Victory cards has to be less than flipping your opponents' victory cards, hence, only +1 card. Small bonus for Curse since +buy is always nice and then there are no whiffs.

My guess is that this self-Tribute would be stronger than actual Tribute, not weaker as many people guessed because there is the ability to better set it up and you have more control over the type of cards you add to your own deck.

I am not surprised it got few votes -- it really was more of a benchmark card. SOMEONE (i.e., eHalcyon) was bound to come up with something better.... but just in case, I submitted anyway.

Probably the reason it didn't do as well is not because it's a bad card. It's totally good. Just that Tribute isn't so exciting, so Bounty is more of a suggested fix rather than a new, unique card. Also why my card, Showman, didn't win. It's a good card, but it's just not super new in the same way the other finalists were.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2014, 08:09:54 pm »
0

Tribute really belongs with Cornucopia

Interesting observation. It's certainly one of the few "differently-named cards" abilities outside Cornucopia. But a thing that makes Tribute not really fit into Cornucopia is that with Tribute, having differently-named cards is a bad thing—the more homogeneous your deck, the less likely your opponent gets a good bonus from Tribute.

(On the other hand, Tribute also makes having Action–Victory cards a bad thing, and that doesn't make it not fit Intrigue.)
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2014, 08:40:07 pm »
0

Tribute really belongs with Cornucopia

Interesting observation. It's certainly one of the few "differently-named cards" abilities outside Cornucopia. But a thing that makes Tribute not really fit into Cornucopia is that with Tribute, having differently-named cards is a bad thing—the more homogeneous your deck, the less likely your opponent gets a good bonus from Tribute.

(On the other hand, Tribute also makes having Action–Victory cards a bad thing, and that doesn't make it not fit Intrigue.)

I think Tribute fits Cornucopia in the same way Hunting Party fits -- it makes you CARE about variety in decks (either your deck because they buy Tribute, or their decks because you want Tribute) but it doesn't necessarily make you WANT variety.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2014, 08:42:52 pm »
+1

Quick note on Bounty (my card):

I came up with it on the fly. I think Tribute really belongs with Cornucopia, so I made a self-Tribute. The bonus for flipping your own Victory cards has to be less than flipping your opponents' victory cards, hence, only +1 card. Small bonus for Curse since +buy is always nice and then there are no whiffs.

My guess is that this self-Tribute would be stronger than actual Tribute, not weaker as many people guessed because there is the ability to better set it up and you have more control over the type of cards you add to your own deck.

I am not surprised it got few votes -- it really was more of a benchmark card. SOMEONE (i.e., eHalcyon) was bound to come up with something better.... but just in case, I submitted anyway.

Probably the reason it didn't do as well is not because it's a bad card. It's totally good. Just that Tribute isn't so exciting, so Bounty is more of a suggested fix rather than a new, unique card. Also why my card, Showman, didn't win. It's a good card, but it's just not super new in the same way the other finalists were.

Hey, now! I never admitted my card was BAD. I would never do such a thing.  ;)

I do agree it's not different enough and that's the reason why it didn't get votes. Though I would be very interested in taking playing Tribute as a self-Tribute (maybe with Bounty's wording) for fun sometime just to see how different it would really play.
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Polk5440

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #6: Cornucopia
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2014, 08:45:28 pm »
0

Oh, I forgot to congratulate eHalcyon on a win. I voted for Storyteller in both rounds, so he successfully deceived me about which card was his. Otherwise, I totally wouldn't have voted for it.  ;) jk
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