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Author Topic: Ghost Village + Action token  (Read 3451 times)

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Emeric

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Ghost Village + Action token
« on: November 06, 2013, 05:02:08 am »
+3

Ghost Village
$2 - Action
+1 Action, +1 Card
Take an Action token.
------------------------
Setup : Each player takes an Action token.



And the rule for the Action token :
At the start of your turn you may spend any Action token and you get +1 action by action token.
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AHoppy

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 05:45:16 am »
+1

I feel like action tokens would be much better than coin tokens, which makes this strictly better than village, which I would think means it should cost more than $2.  At least 4 if not 5. 

qmech

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 06:04:46 am »
+1

It's not strictly better than Village because this card has the serious nerf of only being able to spend action tokens at the start of your turn.  This means both that you have to guess in advance how many you're going to need, and also that you can't use them in the turn that they are generated.  So it actually feels like a worse village, with occasional combo potential.
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Zappie

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 06:05:26 am »
+3

This would enable the normally impossible but awesome / chancellor / counting house / coppersmith / X+buy -combo, which would be a lot of fun!

EDIT: although this probably also requires KC-scavenger to draw them together. And while we are at it, add KC-coppersmith
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:11:39 am by Zappie »
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AHoppy

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 07:00:56 am »
0

It's not strictly better than Village because this card has the serious nerf of only being able to spend action tokens at the start of your turn.  This means both that you have to guess in advance how many you're going to need, and also that you can't use them in the turn that they are generated.  So it actually feels like a worse village, with occasional combo potential.
Ah, that is a serious nerf... So it does seem ok now.  I actually really like the idea.  I feel like you would buy the same number of villages you normally would (minus 1 maybe) because you can almost guarantee that you will be able to connect your village with your terminal.  I'm guessing it wouldn't work as the only village in an engine, but it could act as a good spark-plug in an engine with other villages , almost always making it possible to fire. 

Awaclus

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 07:57:58 am »
+1

This wouldn't be an engine card, this would enable a Big Money deck with too many terminal actions. And that does sound pretty powerful to me - with regular villages, you would have to buy lots of villages to make sure you have a village every time you have colliding terminals, and that would be a huge waste of time and the terminals would still collide without a village sometimes. With this, maybe one or two copies would be enough for a deck like that.
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AHoppy

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 08:45:38 am »
0

This wouldn't be an engine card, this would enable a Big Money deck with too many terminal actions. And that does sound pretty powerful to me - with regular villages, you would have to buy lots of villages to make sure you have a village every time you have colliding terminals, and that would be a huge waste of time and the terminals would still collide without a village sometimes. With this, maybe one or two copies would be enough for a deck like that.
Right.  I was trying to say that if you wanted to use it in an engine, it would need other village support.  It would just be helpful to get your engine started when villages didn't collide with the terminals

BadAssMutha

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 09:19:33 am »
+2

I'm going to save my Action tokens for a mega-Diadem turn!
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 11:05:55 am »
+1

This means both that you have to guess in advance how many you're going to need, and also that you can't use them in the turn that they are generated.

How is the first one a nerf?  With Village you can't guess at all, you just get the actions whenever you draw it; with Ghost Village you have control over when you get the actions (even if you don't know how many you'll need at the start of your turn).  Some control is better than none.  It does have the drawback of not letting you use the actions the turn you play them, but I don't think that's big enough to warrant a $2 cost.  I suspect it's usually better than Village.
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AJD

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 01:05:13 pm »
0

How is the first one a nerf?  With Village you can't guess at all, you just get the actions whenever you draw it; with Ghost Village you have control over when you get the actions (even if you don't know how many you'll need at the start of your turn).  Some control is better than none.  It does have the drawback of not letting you use the actions the turn you play them, but I don't think that's big enough to warrant a $2 cost.  I suspect it's usually better than Village.

Hmmm so. I don't think it's better than Village; the delay in getting the +actions really does weaken it. Compare it to Caravan vs. Laboratory. It's not as much weaker than Village as Caravan is that Laboratory, since you can choose when to get the +actions and Caravan doesn't let you choose when to get the +cards; but you can't have them now. So at the very least it makes any engine you might try to build off it take one more turn before it can start operating.
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Awaclus

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 01:39:48 pm »
+1

How is the first one a nerf?  With Village you can't guess at all, you just get the actions whenever you draw it; with Ghost Village you have control over when you get the actions (even if you don't know how many you'll need at the start of your turn).  Some control is better than none.  It does have the drawback of not letting you use the actions the turn you play them, but I don't think that's big enough to warrant a $2 cost.  I suspect it's usually better than Village.

Hmmm so. I don't think it's better than Village; the delay in getting the +actions really does weaken it. Compare it to Caravan vs. Laboratory. It's not as much weaker than Village as Caravan is that Laboratory, since you can choose when to get the +actions and Caravan doesn't let you choose when to get the +cards; but you can't have them now. So at the very least it makes any engine you might try to build off it take one more turn before it can start operating.
I'd compare it to Merchant Guild vs. Bridge rather than Caravan vs. Laboratory; Bridge gives you an extra coin per buy which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Merchant Guild gives you an extra coin per buy which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Village gives you an extra action which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Ghost Village gives you an extra action which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Bridge is a powerful $4, Merchant Guild is a mediocre $5, and the gap between $4 and $5 is pretty big so Ghost Village would probably be okay at $4.

And getting the action whenever you want is arguably better than getting the money whenever you want. And Bridge helps you with getting more useful buys, Merchant Guild doesn't, so I'm thinking it would be a pretty powerful $4. I don't think it should be a $5 in any case, because then it competes with the terminal actions you want to buy, which is a huge nerf for a village.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:43:27 pm by Awaclus »
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AJD

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 02:24:33 pm »
0

How is the first one a nerf?  With Village you can't guess at all, you just get the actions whenever you draw it; with Ghost Village you have control over when you get the actions (even if you don't know how many you'll need at the start of your turn).  Some control is better than none.  It does have the drawback of not letting you use the actions the turn you play them, but I don't think that's big enough to warrant a $2 cost.  I suspect it's usually better than Village.

Hmmm so. I don't think it's better than Village; the delay in getting the +actions really does weaken it. Compare it to Caravan vs. Laboratory. It's not as much weaker than Village as Caravan is that Laboratory, since you can choose when to get the +actions and Caravan doesn't let you choose when to get the +cards; but you can't have them now. So at the very least it makes any engine you might try to build off it take one more turn before it can start operating.
I'd compare it to Merchant Guild vs. Bridge rather than Caravan vs. Laboratory; Bridge gives you an extra coin per buy which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Merchant Guild gives you an extra coin per buy which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Village gives you an extra action which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Ghost Village gives you an extra action which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Bridge is a powerful $4, Merchant Guild is a mediocre $5, and the gap between $4 and $5 is pretty big so Ghost Village would probably be okay at $4.

And getting the action whenever you want is arguably better than getting the money whenever you want. And Bridge helps you with getting more useful buys, Merchant Guild doesn't, so I'm thinking it would be a pretty powerful $4. I don't think it should be a $5 in any case, because then it competes with the terminal actions you want to buy, which is a huge nerf for a village.

Hmm, mmmaybe. Possible counterarguments:

Cost reduction such as Bridge gives you is not quite as good as +$1. In particular, you can buy a bunch of coppers with Merchant Guild and stock up on coin tokens; but you can't pull that trick with Bridge. If Bridge actually made coppers cost –$1, it'd be much more powerful.

Coin tokens you actually do reserve until you need them. Action tokens, as defined here, you only reserve until you think you need them. You don't necessarily know, at the beginning of your turn, how many +Actions you're going to need for that turn; but you do know, after playing Treasures in your buy phase, how many coin tokens you're going to need to spend to buy what you want. Ghost Village is more like Caravan in this respect, which will give you the +Cards whether they help you or not.
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Awaclus

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 02:46:00 pm »
0

How is the first one a nerf?  With Village you can't guess at all, you just get the actions whenever you draw it; with Ghost Village you have control over when you get the actions (even if you don't know how many you'll need at the start of your turn).  Some control is better than none.  It does have the drawback of not letting you use the actions the turn you play them, but I don't think that's big enough to warrant a $2 cost.  I suspect it's usually better than Village.

Hmmm so. I don't think it's better than Village; the delay in getting the +actions really does weaken it. Compare it to Caravan vs. Laboratory. It's not as much weaker than Village as Caravan is that Laboratory, since you can choose when to get the +actions and Caravan doesn't let you choose when to get the +cards; but you can't have them now. So at the very least it makes any engine you might try to build off it take one more turn before it can start operating.
I'd compare it to Merchant Guild vs. Bridge rather than Caravan vs. Laboratory; Bridge gives you an extra coin per buy which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Merchant Guild gives you an extra coin per buy which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Village gives you an extra action which you can and have to use this turn or not at all, Ghost Village gives you an extra action which you can use whenever you choose, except not this turn. Bridge is a powerful $4, Merchant Guild is a mediocre $5, and the gap between $4 and $5 is pretty big so Ghost Village would probably be okay at $4.

And getting the action whenever you want is arguably better than getting the money whenever you want. And Bridge helps you with getting more useful buys, Merchant Guild doesn't, so I'm thinking it would be a pretty powerful $4. I don't think it should be a $5 in any case, because then it competes with the terminal actions you want to buy, which is a huge nerf for a village.

Hmm, mmmaybe. Possible counterarguments:

Cost reduction such as Bridge gives you is not quite as good as +$1. In particular, you can buy a bunch of coppers with Merchant Guild and stock up on coin tokens; but you can't pull that trick with Bridge. If Bridge actually made coppers cost –$1, it'd be much more powerful.

Coin tokens you actually do reserve until you need them. Action tokens, as defined here, you only reserve until you think you need them. You don't necessarily know, at the beginning of your turn, how many +Actions you're going to need for that turn; but you do know, after playing Treasures in your buy phase, how many coin tokens you're going to need to spend to buy what you want. Ghost Village is more like Caravan in this respect, which will give you the +Cards whether they help you or not.
And this is exactly why I think that it would do well in a big money deck with a higher number of terminals, because it's not difficult to guess how many extra actions you need when your hand is something like JoaT, Swindler, Silver, Silver, Copper. For engines, you want one copy, but you don't want to have this as your only village.

Walled Village is in some ways similar to Ghost Village: if you didn't need the village this turn, you'll get it later. It provides the village effect for this turn, too, though, and it doesn't work that well when you have multiple copies, so actually I'm starting to think that Ghost Village wouldn't be a very powerful $4, but at $4 it's still playable and possibly too strong for $3 (maybe not), definitely too strong for $2..
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eHalcyon

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 06:52:27 pm »
0

The delay means that it isn't strictly better than Village, but being able to save actions probably means it is often better.  I think it could very well warrant a $4 cost, but a $3 cost is where I would start testing.  It has both disadvantages and advantages compared to Village and it isn't entirely clear which outweighs which.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Ghost Village + Action token
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 11:39:54 pm »
0

I think $4, and not based on thinking if it's better than village or not. The thing is that when you want this, you want a lot of this, more so than with village I think (except for BM decks, in which case it doesn't matter anyway. The only real difference between 3 and 4 usually is how hard it is to get 2 or maybe even 3 on a single turn. I just think that 3 makes it a little too easy to get a whole bunch if these.

So if this allowed you to turn in a token for an action at any time during your turn, would it maybe be a $5? I wonder if that would be a more insteresting card, because as it is, there's a fair amount of swingyness in which you might turn in a few tokens before playing smithy, and then get screwed on here draw.
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