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Author Topic: Dominion Team World Cup Rules  (Read 27900 times)

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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2013, 11:45:55 am »
0

in which the UK dies

 ???

Is it expected that the UK will enter as a whole or as its constituent countries?

I must admit to having a vested interest in this. The way I've been playing lately I'm unlikely to make a UK team but I might get into a Welsh one!



No, we already have troubles to get enough teams. But, I have looked at your rating, and I'm not as confident as you that you won't make the cut. Just signup and maybe you can play (or be a substitute). Just try it out.

RobertJ

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2013, 12:07:46 pm »
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No, we already have troubles to get enough teams. But, I have looked at your rating, and I'm not as confident as you that you won't make the cut. Just signup and maybe you can play (or be a substitute). Just try it out.

Thanks. I'm still deciding whether I will have time to play but I'll have a think about it and hopefully sign up before the 10 November deadline.
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2013, 12:32:34 pm »
+1

4 games is really no option I think, too much variance.
The problem is that we need a tie-breaker in a short league like this and I don't see a better option than using match points. If no-one has a better option for tie-breaking, I guess every match should go over the full series of 6 games.

6 games isn't a whole lot so that shouldn't be a problem :)

Speaking about variance, if you really want to reduce it as much as possible and want to make the matches more like team efforts where each individual game matters, you could just let the overall score be what determines the outcome. E.g. if the 4 match-ups constituting Belgium - Germany end 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5 and 6 - 0, Belgium has won with 13.5 - 10.5.

I think that rather focusses more on individual play rather than team play as the star player (in this example) won for the whole team.

That's one way to look at it, another would be that Belgium was only able to win because the three other players were able to keep their games close, and ultimately their combined efforts of 7.5 points ended up contributing more to the win than the star player's 6 points. There's also the possibility of the "star player"'s opponent just having messed up. This is precisely the point: with this system each individual performance contributes more to the end result because there's a larger reward for a great performance and a larger cost associated with a poor performance, and thus also a decent reward for preventing a poor performance by "only" losing 4-2 instead of 6-0. And isn't that what you're looking for in a team sport? To make your individual actions matter to the group? To be able to compensate for a team mate's bad luck, or to have someone else make up for your poor showing?

The main idea behind my proposal, though, is just to reduce variance: by distributing it across matches, decent chunks are expected to cancel out between them, so by using the total score, luck has a much smaller impact on which country wins the match.

Quote
Edit: Also, it disadvantages teams that already have troubles to get a full 4 member team. If the 4th player (that only joined to get a full team) loses 0-6 every time, this team will have big troubles to get a good end result.

Yes, the consequence of reducing variance is that weaker teams have a lower chance of winning, but I contend that that's a good thing. A country with 4 strong players should crush a country with 3 strong players and a total drooler, you don't want such a match-up to be close due to unnecessary systemic variance.
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Ozle

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2013, 12:44:52 pm »
+5

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Apart from the Football World Cup....
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 12:46:05 pm by Ozle »
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2013, 12:47:49 pm »
+4

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Apart from the Football World Cup....

Oh an the Rugby Union World Cup
An the Rugby League World Cup
Oh and the Cricket World Cup
And even the World Cup of Darts


Oh found another
Scotland are current Curling world champs
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 12:54:01 pm by Ozle »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2013, 03:44:50 pm »
0

It should be allowed to agree on a different team leader.
If there's too few teams (9-11 or 13-15), and there's teams with less than 4 players, then the contries that are placed close to each other should be put together to create the missing team(s) instead of contries sending more than 1 team.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2013, 03:45:25 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Apart from the Football World Cup....

Oh an the Rugby Union World Cup
An the Rugby League World Cup
Oh and the Cricket World Cup
And even the World Cup of Darts


Oh found another
Scotland are current Curling world champs

Also in snooker, but team competitions are rare in that sport.
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Teproc

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2013, 04:01:10 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Funny, the only one I can think of where this is not the case are the Olympics (I'm sure there are others, but not in major sports AFAIK).
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Ozle

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2013, 04:09:34 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Funny, the only one I can think of where this is not the case are the Olympics (I'm sure there are others, but not in major sports AFAIK).

Basketball is the only one I can think of, and that's not major over here.
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Kirian

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2013, 05:03:05 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Apart from the Football World Cup....

Oh an the Rugby Union World Cup
An the Rugby League World Cup
Oh and the Cricket World Cup
And even the World Cup of Darts

Oh found another
Scotland are current Curling world champs

I did not know that about the World Cup.  That said, aren't rugby and cricket basically only played in Commonwealth countries?  And snooker, for that matter?

My knowledge of sports is very, very low.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2013, 05:18:55 pm »
0

Rugby is very big in France (n°2, way behind football though) and fairly played in Italy and Argentina as well. Then it's South Africa, Australia and Pacific islands (Tonga, Samoa, Fidji).

Cricket is Commonwealth only I'm pretty sure. Snooker is not (I mean, I don't know much about competitive snooker, but I can't think of a reason it should'nt have French/German/East Asian/Latin-American players).
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2013, 05:41:43 pm »
0

Rugby is very big in France (n°2, way behind football though) and fairly played in Italy and Argentina as well. Then it's South Africa, Australia and Pacific islands (Tonga, Samoa, Fidji).

Cricket is Commonwealth only I'm pretty sure. Snooker is not (I mean, I don't know much about competitive snooker, but I can't think of a reason it should'nt have French/German/East Asian/Latin-American players).

Competitive snooker is mostly UK, Ireland and China, but several other countries has a single top player.
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RobertJ

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2013, 06:44:00 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Funny, the only one I can think of where this is not the case are the Olympics (I'm sure there are others, but not in major sports AFAIK).

Even the Olympics is a bit strange in that the team is always referred to as Great Britain despite being really the UK (or more accurately the UK together with the Crown dependencies)!

Maybe this thread should get back to Dominion matters before we risk confusing the Americans too much. :P

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2013, 06:45:35 pm »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?

Funny, the only one I can think of where this is not the case are the Olympics (I'm sure there are others, but not in major sports AFAIK).

Even the Olympics is a bit strange in that the team is always referred to as Great Britain despite being really the UK (or more accurately the UK together with the Crown dependencies)!

Maybe this thread should get back to Dominion matters before we risk confusing the Americans too much. :P

Agreed (possibly split it off?)
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2013, 11:29:04 pm »
+1

4 games is really no option I think, too much variance.
The problem is that we need a tie-breaker in a short league like this and I don't see a better option than using match points. If no-one has a better option for tie-breaking, I guess every match should go over the full series of 6 games.

6 games isn't a whole lot so that shouldn't be a problem :)

Speaking about variance, if you really want to reduce it as much as possible and want to make the matches more like team efforts where each individual game matters, you could just let the overall score be what determines the outcome. E.g. if the 4 match-ups constituting Belgium - Germany end 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5 and 6 - 0, Belgium has won with 13.5 - 10.5.

I think that rather focusses more on individual play rather than team play as the star player (in this example) won for the whole team.

That's one way to look at it, another would be that Belgium was only able to win because the three other players were able to keep their games close, and ultimately their combined efforts of 7.5 points ended up contributing more to the win than the star player's 6 points. There's also the possibility of the "star player"'s opponent just having messed up. This is precisely the point: with this system each individual performance contributes more to the end result because there's a larger reward for a great performance and a larger cost associated with a poor performance, and thus also a decent reward for preventing a poor performance by "only" losing 4-2 instead of 6-0. And isn't that what you're looking for in a team sport? To make your individual actions matter to the group? To be able to compensate for a team mate's bad luck, or to have someone else make up for your poor showing?

The main idea behind my proposal, though, is just to reduce variance: by distributing it across matches, decent chunks are expected to cancel out between them, so by using the total score, luck has a much smaller impact on which country wins the match.

Quote
Edit: Also, it disadvantages teams that already have troubles to get a full 4 member team. If the 4th player (that only joined to get a full team) loses 0-6 every time, this team will have big troubles to get a good end result.

Yes, the consequence of reducing variance is that weaker teams have a lower chance of winning, but I contend that that's a good thing. A country with 4 strong players should crush a country with 3 strong players and a total drooler, you don't want such a match-up to be close due to unnecessary systemic variance.

I get what you mean, thanks for the idea, but I just won't do this. Especially I don't like this:

with this system each individual performance contributes more to the end result because there's a larger reward for a great performance and a larger cost associated with a poor performance

This implicitly means that the focus is on individual play rather on team play. If one player has a really bad day he ruins the match for the whole team and is basically a "loser". This would lead to frustration and isn't too different to just a single-player tournament. One game shouldn't be worth more than any other match, that's what makes this tournament unique. Every player (no matter if he is a good one or not, no matter if he has a good day or not) contributes the same amount to the success (or failure) of a team.

In my opinion, when a team with 4 strong players plays against a team with 3 strong players and bad one and the top 3 seeded players of team A all mess up and lose against the other team, they are indeed the worse team - no matter how the 4th match ends.

That's just my opinion. Also, on a side note, I don't know of any sports team tournament where the score is accumulated. I know that in tennis (Davis Cup) and table tennis, it's exactly this system and it makes sense to me.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2013, 03:52:17 pm »
+1

2.) The average player rating on the Isotropish Leaderboard will determine the seeds of each group.

I like to add something here. I tried around a little to get a valid seeding of the groups. I will do the following:
I assume all teams get formed solely based on the rank on the leaderboard which means I take the best 4 players of team and list them all in a mixed group (If someone will choose a lower ranked player for their team, he likely has a good reason and shouldn't affect the strength of the team). Then each player gets a seed based on his rank. The team seed will be determined by the median seed of the 4 players.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2013, 10:12:23 pm »
+1

For those with the salvager mod, is the VP counter strictly on or off? Or should the salvager mod simply be disabled for all competition games?

I don't think this has been addressed, but if it has can someone kindly link me to the answer?
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2013, 10:35:49 pm »
0

I'd also like to take this opportunity to ask what is the best way to make sure player starting order rules are adhered to while keeping the board truly random.

On Goko, unranked matches don't hide the cards before the game. Only Pro mode has that. If players have to keep leaving games until they get the correct seating order, then the board randomness issue is present when playing in unranked mode. Otherwise, someone has to lose Pro points to ensure the board can't be analyzed before the game.

I personally don't mind losing Pro points, or being sure not to peek when hosting/playing unranked matches. It just sucks that Goko doesn't provide an elegant solution to this.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2013, 10:44:07 pm »
+1

I'd also like to take this opportunity to ask what is the best way to make sure player starting order rules are adhered to while keeping the board truly random.

On Goko, unranked matches don't hide the cards before the game. Only Pro mode has that. If players have to keep leaving games until they get the correct seating order, then the board randomness issue is present when playing in unranked mode. Otherwise, someone has to lose Pro points to ensure the board can't be analyzed before the game.

I personally don't mind losing Pro points, or being sure not to peek when hosting/playing unranked matches. It just sucks that Goko doesn't provide an elegant solution to this.
Add it to the wishlist:
All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.

Although I dislike Goko, I feel like this is a little harsh and against the spirit of Christmas.  Rather, in the spirit of the 12 days of Christmas here is a reasonable list of things for Goko to do.

1.)  Fix management
2.)  Interact and respond to issues with the playerbase (e.g. cheaters)
3.)  Remove server instability
4.)  Allow all promos to be bought
5.)  Implement automatch
6.)  Provide a more cohesive lobby structure
7.)  Revamp game interface
8.)  Cards like Hamlet, JoaT, Urchin, Storeroom etc. need looking at for inconvenience
9.)  Devise a long-term business plan (they need money if they're going to stay afloat and it won't continue to come from Dominion)
10.)  Make gamelog easier to follow  (tab stuff, colorize it, anything would be better than their current efforts)
11.)  Allow users to have a friends list
12.)  Allow users to propose games to certain players
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2013, 04:39:43 am »
0

For those with the salvager mod, is the VP counter strictly on or off? Or should the salvager mod simply be disabled for all competition games?

I don't think this has been addressed, but if it has can someone kindly link me to the answer?

It wasn't addressed because I haven't thought of it. I think it's best to imitate Salvager's standard behavior. If anyone doesn't want to play with the point counter, the game is played without, otherwise feel free to play with it enabled.

Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2013, 04:41:01 am »
+1

I'd also like to take this opportunity to ask what is the best way to make sure player starting order rules are adhered to while keeping the board truly random.

On Goko, unranked matches don't hide the cards before the game. Only Pro mode has that. If players have to keep leaving games until they get the correct seating order, then the board randomness issue is present when playing in unranked mode. Otherwise, someone has to lose Pro points to ensure the board can't be analyzed before the game.

I personally don't mind losing Pro points, or being sure not to peek when hosting/playing unranked matches. It just sucks that Goko doesn't provide an elegant solution to this.

Yeah, it's unfortunate Goko hasn't a good way of handling it. But it's just best to not play in Pro mode. I doubt that anyone would set the kingdom up in his advantage.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2013, 02:48:32 pm »
0

So if I am reading the rules correctly, if warrior beats RTT 4-2 in the last US-Germany match, it comes down to a coin flip for the winner?
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2013, 02:50:10 pm »
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No, that was only for advancing to the playoffs. What you search for is this:

9.) Is this still a tie, the team leaders have to play another match to determine the winner. The match follows the same pattern (A-B-B-A-A), but there's no 6th game possible, it's a best of 5 match.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2014, 12:59:53 pm »
0

Do you play with #vpon ? Any other rules and stipulations?
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2014, 01:14:59 pm »
0

Do you play with #vpon ? Any other rules and stipulations?

Thanks for asking. There were no rules yet. I've added this rule:
3.) Point Counter should be enabled by default, but can be turned off by mutual consent.
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