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Author Topic: Dominion Team World Cup Rules  (Read 27895 times)

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Qvist

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Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« on: November 03, 2013, 02:07:57 pm »
+15

Teams:

1.) When signups are closed, every player gets seeded based on the Full Isotropish Leaderboard.
2.) The best seeded player of a country will be the team leader and has to form his team of 4 players in total. Players with no games on Goko won't be seeded (aren't eligible as team leaders), but are still eligible as team members.
3.) Players who aren't part of the main team are substitutes if anyone cannot play in a week for some reason.
4.) Countries with less then 4 players aren't eligible.
5.) If the team is formed every player in the team gets also a seed within the team, also based on the Isotropish Leaderboard, so the strongest player will be Player 1 and so on.

Tournament Structure:

Seeding the group
1.) The goal is to reach 16 countries which will get seeded in 4 groups à 4 teams.
2.) The average player rating on the Isotropish Leaderboard will determine the seeds of each group.
3.) If we only get 13-15 teams, countries are allowed to send in a secondary team. This will be also determined by average player ratings of the players who aren't already in a team yet.
4.) If we reach 12 teams, we'll get 4 groups à 3 teams. For 9-11 teams secondary teams can also be formed to fill the gap.

Group phase
1.) In each group every team play against every other team.
2.) Each round lasts one week.
3.) In a match every player plays a game against the player of the opposing country with the same seed, so player 1 of team A against player 1 of team B, and so on.

Match structure and points
1.) Each match will involve exactly 6 games.
2.) Every player has to get first seat in exactly 3 games.
3.) Because Goko randomly assigns starting players, you may be required to reset games to get the correct start order. It is recommended that you play unrated games after one player went first 3 times for this reason.
4.) The player who owns more cards has to host the games.
5.) Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins if he has more points after 6 matches than his opponent. If both players have the same amount of points, it's a tie.
6.) A win counts 1 match point for the team and a draw counts as 0.5 match point for each team. The sum of all 4 matches will determine the winner.

Playoffs
1.) After each team has played against each other team from the same group, the round phase is over.
2.) The team with the most match points advances to the playoffs.
3.) In case of a tie, the difference between the sum of all game points and the sum of all opposing teams' game points count as tiebreaker.
4.) If there's still a tie (hopefully not), there will be a coin flip.
5.) The winner of group A will play against the winner of group D, and the winner of group B will play against the winner of group C.
6.) The playoffs have the same rules except there are no ties.
7.) In case of a tie, the team with more game points advances.
8.) Is this still a tie, the team leaders have to play another match to determine the winner. The match follows the starting player pattern A-B-B-A-A, but there's no 6th game possible, it's a best of 5 match.
9.) Both winning countries advance to the finals which has the same rules as the semi-finals.

Organizing Matches
1.) Each match last one week, from Monday to Sunday.
2.) Paired opponents have to schedule their match in this time frame. If a player has no time to play in this week, he must inform the team leader and me via PM in advance. The team leader has to to determine a replacement and inform me about it. If a team can't find a replacement it counts as loss for this team. If both players have time, but still can't find a schedule to play it counts as a 0-0 draw.
3.) Point Counter should be enabled by default, but can be turned off by mutual consent.

Schedule (planned)
Group Phase Match 1: 11th - 17th November
Group Phase Match 2: 18th - 24th November
Group Phase Match 3: 25th - 1st December
Semi-Finals: 2nd - 8th December
Finals: 9th - 15th December


Feel free to ask questions. (If some feedback makes it appropriate, the rules could be adjusted)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:56:58 am by Qvist »
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 04:03:16 pm »
0

Question: What happens if the players own the same number of cards, but different cards? Also, I assume that only kingdom cards count, am I mistaken?
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 04:16:45 pm »
0

Question: What happens if the players own the same number of cards, but different cards? Also, I assume that only kingdom cards count, am I mistaken?

I doubt that this could happen, but if it happens it is left to the players to find an agreement. If they don't find an agreement, the first player hosts the game.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 06:03:44 pm »
+3

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 06:14:27 pm »
+2

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Since game score is used as a tie break, would it make sense to always play out all 6 games?
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 06:18:32 pm »
0

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Not sure if I understand what you mean here. So, you're proposing basically "Best of 7" with a limit of 6 games, right? As I haven't seen any complaints about the GokoDom II rules I just adapted them because they seemed fair. I really don't know much about the advantages or disadvantages of both systems, but I think the idea is basically to keep tournament matches in a decent time frame while still being fair to everyone. I guess the basic idea is a "Best of 5" rather a "Best of 7", but with the possibility of one player to tie after the games stands close 3-2. Maybe Kirian can contribute to that!?

Edit:

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Since game score is used as a tie break, would it make sense to always play out all 6 games?

This is also a valid argument.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:19:33 pm by Qvist »
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 10:01:55 am »
0

I guess the basic idea is a "Best of 5" rather a "Best of 7", but with the possibility of one player to tie after the games stands close 3-2. Maybe Kirian can contribute to that!?

If I remember correctly, that was the idea. Best of 5 with the 6th game correcting partially for first player advantage. Kirian can probably link to the relevant discussion thread.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 11:27:02 am »
0

It sounds like the clearest way to state it is:
  • If at any point a player has at least 3 points and is winning the match by at least 2 points, that player wins.
  • If 6 games have been played, then the player with the most points wins. If they are tied, it is a tie.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 12:17:25 pm »
0

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Not sure if I understand what you mean here. So, you're proposing basically "Best of 7" with a limit of 6 games, right?

That's a strange way of putting it, I'd just call it "best of 6" :) I'm fine with best of 5, 6, 7, 8 or any higher number (within reason, and preferably an even number), I just don't like that the match is over when there's still a chance to tie, so with a max of 6 games the minimum winning conditions would need to be 3.5 - 0.5 or 3.5 - 1.5, not 3-0 or 3-1, or, more succinctly: the first player to obtain 3.5 points or more wins.

And if the score is going to be used as a tie-breaker, then everyone really should just play the agreed upon number of games, regardless of who's winning by how much.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 11:02:50 am »
+3

4.) Countries with less then 4 players aren't eligible.

Maybe you can contact players from countries with 2-3 players before kicking them out, I guess in many cases they know a IRL friend which could also play to complete the team. This may help reaching the 12 (or 16) teams barrier.
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 05:35:13 pm »
0

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Not sure if I understand what you mean here. So, you're proposing basically "Best of 7" with a limit of 6 games, right?

That's a strange way of putting it, I'd just call it "best of 6" :) I'm fine with best of 5, 6, 7, 8 or any higher number (within reason, and preferably an even number), I just don't like that the match is over when there's still a chance to tie, so with a max of 6 games the minimum winning conditions would need to be 3.5 - 0.5 or 3.5 - 1.5, not 3-0 or 3-1, or, more succinctly: the first player to obtain 3.5 points or more wins.

And if the score is going to be used as a tie-breaker, then everyone really should just play the agreed upon number of games, regardless of who's winning by how much.

Sure, I understand this concern. I thought about it a little and didn't came to a conclusion. Would anyone have any problems or counterarguments with this change?

4.) Countries with less then 4 players aren't eligible.

Maybe you can contact players from countries with 2-3 players before kicking them out, I guess in many cases they know a IRL friend which could also play to complete the team. This may help reaching the 12 (or 16) teams barrier.

Of course, I'm already concerned that we don't get enough players after there was so much interest. Maybe we can group some countries together to form a team. But I'm not sure yet.

Edit: I like to emphasize that every IRL friend still already can signup. They don't have to wait if the 4-player threshold will be reached.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:41:06 pm by Qvist »
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2013, 06:04:51 pm »
0

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Not sure if I understand what you mean here. So, you're proposing basically "Best of 7" with a limit of 6 games, right?

That's a strange way of putting it, I'd just call it "best of 6" :) I'm fine with best of 5, 6, 7, 8 or any higher number (within reason, and preferably an even number), I just don't like that the match is over when there's still a chance to tie, so with a max of 6 games the minimum winning conditions would need to be 3.5 - 0.5 or 3.5 - 1.5, not 3-0 or 3-1, or, more succinctly: the first player to obtain 3.5 points or more wins.

And if the score is going to be used as a tie-breaker, then everyone really should just play the agreed upon number of games, regardless of who's winning by how much.

Sure, I understand this concern. I thought about it a little and didn't came to a conclusion. Would anyone have any problems or counterarguments with this change?
A concern could be, that it may lead to long games. Maybe we could make best of 5, which is nearly the same (you win with 3 points). But I think best of 6 is ok too, if we say you win with 3,5 points and don't have to play the other games which are left.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2013, 09:05:43 pm »
+1

Winning a game awards 1 game point; drawing a game awards 0.5 game points to both players. A player wins the match if after 3 or 4 games, s/he has 3 game points; or after 5 or 6 games s/he has 3.5 game points. A 3-3 tie on game points is a tie for the match.

I'm really not a fan of this rule. If after 3 games it's 3-0 or after 4 games 3-1, it's still possible to become a tie, so I would like the match to continue until a tie is completely ruled out.

Not sure if I understand what you mean here. So, you're proposing basically "Best of 7" with a limit of 6 games, right?

That's a strange way of putting it, I'd just call it "best of 6" :) I'm fine with best of 5, 6, 7, 8 or any higher number (within reason, and preferably an even number), I just don't like that the match is over when there's still a chance to tie, so with a max of 6 games the minimum winning conditions would need to be 3.5 - 0.5 or 3.5 - 1.5, not 3-0 or 3-1, or, more succinctly: the first player to obtain 3.5 points or more wins.

The original intent of this system in GokoDom was to balance out a first-to-three match by accounting for first player advantage, using a tennis match as a model.  That's why the 3-0 and 3-1 are considered wins; in both cases you have won at least two more games than your opponent, and you have won from the second seat at least once.  This is true for any win condition other than 3.5-2.5, in fact. The reason for the A-B-B-A-A-B order is that it ends up giving no advantage in terms of games played to the current first player, unless the current first player has already won from the second seat.

However:

Quote
And if the score is going to be used as a tie-breaker, then everyone really should just play the agreed upon number of games, regardless of who's winning by how much.

This.  If game points will be a tie-breaker, you need each pairing to play a full series.  I might suggest, as a compromise, making a series four games instead of six?
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 09:11:18 pm »
0

Considering the amount of signups from the USA, I wonder if it would make sense to allow multiple regional teams if we don't get enough teams from other countries?  Obv if we have plenty of signups, it's not necessary...
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 01:06:15 pm »
0

I am a US citizen but live in Switzerland.  Can I compete for Switzerland?
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 03:49:52 pm »
0

I am a US citizen but live in Switzerland.  Can I compete for Switzerland?

I doubt there are some more Swiss people here around. (I'm one of them :), but unfortunately another tournament aside from the German one is a bit too much for me)
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 03:53:32 pm »
0

I am a US citizen but live in Switzerland.  Can I compete for Switzerland?

From the sign up thread
"(Your nationality should be your native country, not the country you live in)"
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2013, 05:44:46 pm »
0

I am a US citizen but live in Switzerland.  Can I compete for Switzerland?

No, sorry. You have to signup for the US. But if 1 guy for Switzerland is missing, maybe you could fill in the gap, same goes with ashersky. I mean, this is the first try to do this. I just want that this will a blast.

I doubt there are some more Swiss people here around. (I'm one of them :), but unfortunately another tournament aside from the German one is a bit too much for me)

It's only 3-5 games, not really a tournament. I hope you could join.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2013, 05:48:24 pm »
+1

Considering the amount of signups from the USA, I wonder if it would make sense to allow multiple regional teams if we don't get enough teams from other countries?  Obv if we have plenty of signups, it's not necessary...

3.) If we only get 13-15 teams, countries are allowed to send in a secondary team. This will be also determined by average player ratings of the players who aren't already in a team yet.



This.  If game points will be a tie-breaker, you need each pairing to play a full series.  I might suggest, as a compromise, making a series four games instead of six?

4 games is really no option I think, too much variance.
The problem is that we need a tie-breaker in a short league like this and I don't see a better option than using match points. If no-one has a better option for tie-breaking, I guess every match should go over the full series of 6 games.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2013, 07:00:42 pm »
+1

Talked a little bit with RTT and GwinnR and Mr Anderson. They said they would be fine if I for myself would join the tournament. I'm not sure about that as I'm the organizer. So, I leave you do the final call.

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2013, 07:14:37 pm »
+2

Talked a little bit with RTT and GwinnR and Mr Anderson. They said they would be fine if I for myself would join the tournament. I'm not sure about that as I'm the organizer. So, I leave you do the final call.
Set up the way it is, I do not see an advantage of being organizer over participant when it comes to playing.  I definitely agree that you should be able to play. 
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2013, 10:21:37 am »
+3

4 games is really no option I think, too much variance.
The problem is that we need a tie-breaker in a short league like this and I don't see a better option than using match points. If no-one has a better option for tie-breaking, I guess every match should go over the full series of 6 games.

6 games isn't a whole lot so that shouldn't be a problem :)

Speaking about variance, if you really want to reduce it as much as possible and want to make the matches more like team efforts where each individual game matters, you could just let the overall score be what determines the outcome. E.g. if the 4 match-ups constituting Belgium - Germany end 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5 and 6 - 0, Belgium has won with 13.5 - 10.5.
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2013, 11:21:40 am »
0

4 games is really no option I think, too much variance.
The problem is that we need a tie-breaker in a short league like this and I don't see a better option than using match points. If no-one has a better option for tie-breaking, I guess every match should go over the full series of 6 games.

6 games isn't a whole lot so that shouldn't be a problem :)

Speaking about variance, if you really want to reduce it as much as possible and want to make the matches more like team efforts where each individual game matters, you could just let the overall score be what determines the outcome. E.g. if the 4 match-ups constituting Belgium - Germany end 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5, 2.5-3.5 and 6 - 0, Belgium has won with 13.5 - 10.5.

I think that rather focusses more on individual play rather than team play as the star player (in this example) won for the whole team.

Edit: Also, it disadvantages teams that already have troubles to get a full 4 member team. If the 4th player (that only joined to get a full team) loses 0-6 every time, this team will have big troubles to get a good end result.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 11:27:16 am by Qvist »
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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2013, 11:38:33 am »
+1

Is it expected that the UK will enter as a whole or as its constituent countries?

I must admit to having a vested interest in this. The way I've been playing lately I'm unlikely to make a UK team but I might get into a Welsh one!

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Re: Dominion Team World Cup Rules
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2013, 11:41:54 am »
0

I know of no modern international competitions in which the UK dies not compete as a united team.  Maybe some sort of intra-commonwealth games might do that?
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