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Author Topic: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Game Over, Mafia Wins!)  (Read 167681 times)

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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1575 on: December 30, 2013, 07:04:07 pm »

I will certainly vote: Voltaire I thought he was scum with robz, robz was town but it doesn't decrease my feeling of volt being scum.
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1576 on: December 30, 2013, 07:23:23 pm »

Vote Count 4.2

Voltaire (2): 2.7, mcmc

Not Voting (4): Teproc, manda, Voltaire, Walrus

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline for Day4 is January 8 at 6:00 pm forum time.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1577 on: December 30, 2013, 11:26:47 pm »

So sorry, Robz, both for mislynching you, and also that I'm not super keen on a Voltaire lynch today. First of all, my result--that's a ~50% chance that Volt is not scum. I gotta listen to the evidence.

I am also against a no lynch today. I just don't see the rationale for it.

I agree that we should start getting very worried about lurkers. In particular, vote: mcmc. This is partially by default from previous scumreads, but also because he is continuing to insist on a Voltaire lynch based on outdated info--a Robz/Volt scum team is impossible, given Robz' flip.

e, I think you should keep targeting me. Not to be controlling or anything, but whom else would you target, really? If I die and e doesn't, I would consider that to be quite a scummy thing.

As you may have seen I am stuck in the Atlanta airport--I will have time to contribute more when (if) I get home tomorrow (eventually).
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1578 on: December 31, 2013, 10:36:58 am »

Assuming Walrus is not trying to pull off an amazing scum performance by throwing his partner under the bus by counterfakeclaiming his partners fakeclaim, there is a lynch pool of 4 players with 2 scum.  Which means that the 2 town members have a 2/3 shot of hitting scum. 

I do not want to no-lynch

In fact, vote: voltaire because of his "reasonable" argument for the no-lynch

Scum will NK myself or Walrus.  you don't learn anything from that.  at all.  Actually, you will probably learn that I am the bodyguard because I will bodyguard Walrus and die doing it.  Or scum will strongman Walrus. 

I think there is a much better chance that we lynch scum today than if we no-lynch.  tomorrow, scum needs to get one town member to vote the wrong person, they jump on it and game over.  We need a lynch today.  We need to be confident.  It is scum!volt telling us we don't need to lynch today

What do we gain by taking a bigger risk today? Seriously, I don't see why this is wrong.
It is not a "bigger risk" lynching today.  It is a "bigger risk" lynching tomorrow and no-lynching today.  The reason for this is because we have 2 quasi-ICs, myself and walrus.  We will be the ones to die overnight.  What are you playing for, that scum will kill one of 4 of you in the lynch pool?  We learn nothing at all other than that we (walrus and I) are in fact the roles that we claimed (which I already believe). 

So right now it takes 4 people to lynch.  so it takes 2 town+2 scum to mislynch.  Tomorrow it would take 1 town+ 2 scum to mislynch.  I like our chances to avoid a mislynch today.  So it is actually a bigger risk waiting for tomorrow to lynch

You solve that problem by being careful with your vote tomorrow. What we gain today is confirmation that you and Walrus haven't pulled the wool over all our eyes. I don't think you have, but the (presumable) death of one of you tonight would help confirm that. Today is mylo, tomorrow is lylo if we no-lynch. Are you really comfortable betting the game today? (hint, you shouldn't be, you're voting for a loss right now)

If we're dead-set on risking it today and counting on Walrus as a backup if we're wrong, then I'll probably vote for mcmc. But right now, I do think vote: no lynch is the right call. I honestly see no downside to this and (slight) upside, which makes it a clear choice.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1579 on: December 31, 2013, 12:10:34 pm »

Voltaire's reasoning MIGHT make sense. The only thing I was thinking is that a smaller player pool makes my role more powerful. My/lylo situations are complicated by the fact that I might actually block a kill at some point.

I'll sleep on it and get back to you. I'm still trying to get back to the west coast.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1580 on: December 31, 2013, 01:22:09 pm »

Alright, re-read time. Looking at ash's interactions with everyone first. There's, like, nothing with anyone still alive compared to all the dead players.

mcmc - says he confuses with manda. Then calls mcmc scum, with no explanation up until this point. mcmc did not have a single vote at the time. I can eaaaaaaaasily see this as a free bus with little risk. Called an acti-lurker. Ash then claimed acti-lurking isn't scummy.
manda - says he confuses with mcmc. Calls scummy D1 and asks if newbie pass is happening. I could see this both as a chance to call a scum partner scummy and fishing for a mislynch. Null. Then he gives advice to manda. It's...strange, because I assume scum have daychat (due to ash). Called scummy for Jorbles vote. Called a lurker.
Walrus - called scum late D1. And then ash went nuts here. This one's possible with crazy counter-claiming insanity/risk madness everywhere, but like 1% odds (and that's why I want no-lynch to test it). Called acti-lurker.
Teproc - called sheepy. Called an acti-lurker. Calls me/Teproc town v town D2.
e - calls his daypasses scum covering. And then of course there's all the votes and stuff, and yeah, there's just no way e is scum.

Near the end of D1, ash said he wouldn't lynch e, myself, or Teproc. On D2, he wanted us to look off-wagon (still alive, that's just manda).

So...just looking at ash's interactions with others, I'd say mcmc > Teproc > manda > Walrus > e.

Then add in the fact that Teproc is conf. not goon, was roleblocked, and I'm comfortable bumping him below manda. The GoT lurker!scum wins argument does seem to fit here very well.

If we're going to lynch today, I'm voting mcmc. I feel very good about it, actually. Especially with his vote currently on me.

I know it's not sexy, but no-lynch is the right call.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1581 on: December 31, 2013, 01:26:25 pm »

Can we get a prod on manda? It's been almost 2 days since D4 started.
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manda2014

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1582 on: December 31, 2013, 02:50:50 pm »

I'm here. I need to do a reread but based on my initial read-through I think no-lynch is probably the right call.
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manda2014

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1583 on: December 31, 2013, 03:02:38 pm »

Okay so I think the argument for no-lynch is just slightly stronger than the argument for a lynch. Having some confirmation on the PRs is especially enticing.

If we are going to lynch, however, mcmc seems scummy. He is jumping on things really quickly and that just does not sit right with me. He was really quick to hammer robz without giving people a chance for final comments (I would have left my vote until much closer to the deadline, but I wasn't going to be around). And then he jumped in really quickly with a vote on Volt.
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1584 on: December 31, 2013, 06:42:19 pm »

Vote Count 4.3

Voltaire (2): 2.7, mcmc
mcmc (1): Walrus
No Lynch (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (2): Teproc, manda

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline for Day4 is January 8 at 6:00 pm forum time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 07:00:57 pm by yuma »
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1585 on: December 31, 2013, 06:53:57 pm »

Vote: No Lynch? Can we not do that? Why doesn't my vote count?
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1586 on: December 31, 2013, 07:00:27 pm »

Vote Count 4.3Fixed

Voltaire (2): 2.7, mcmc
mcmc (1): Walrus
No Lynch (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (2): Teproc, manda

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline for Day4 is January 8 at 6:00 pm forum time.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1587 on: January 02, 2014, 10:21:55 am »

We've stalled out again.

Walrus, what are you thinking? If you join me and manda in no-lynch we can force it through by timing out (though that's not great).
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1588 on: January 02, 2014, 11:06:00 am »

We've stalled out again.

Walrus, what are you thinking? If you join me and manda in no-lynch we can force it through by timing out (though that's not great).

I will work towards no lynch rather than letting deadline hit, though really I would rather a volt lynch who is most likely scum. A I thought he wasscum yesterday, B rob who I thought was scum turned out to be town and probably right about volt being scum.
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Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1589 on: January 02, 2014, 11:07:51 am »

We've stalled out again.

Walrus, what are you thinking? If you join me and manda in no-lynch we can force it through by timing out (though that's not great).

I will work towards no lynch rather than letting deadline hit, though really I would rather a volt lynch who is most likely scum. A I thought he wasscum yesterday, B rob who I thought was scum turned out to be town and probably right about volt being scum.

If you are town, please understand that this is a terrible line of thinking. Being dead town doesn't make you magically right. Robz and I were wrong about each other, like yuma and I were in GoT. I don't want it to cost us the game again!
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1590 on: January 02, 2014, 11:08:37 am »

So sorry, Robz, both for mislynching you, and also that I'm not super keen on a Voltaire lynch today. First of all, my result--that's a ~50% chance that Volt is not scum. I gotta listen to the evidence.

I am also against a no lynch today. I just don't see the rationale for it.

I agree that we should start getting very worried about lurkers. In particular, vote: mcmc. This is partially by default from previous scumreads, but also because he is continuing to insist on a Voltaire lynch based on outdated info--a Robz/Volt scum team is impossible, given Robz' flip.

e, I think you should keep targeting me. Not to be controlling or anything, but whom else would you target, really? If I die and e doesn't, I would consider that to be quite a scummy thing.

As you may have seen I am stuck in the Atlanta airport--I will have time to contribute more when (if) I get home tomorrow (eventually).

Robz/volt scum team was not my only reasoning, I was pretty sure volt was scum and fit as a scum partner with robz well so I eventually was okay with lynchig robz as well, though even yesterday I wanted volt first. I think volt/teprocas robz said is scum. though there is still the slight chance 2.7 isscum, I need to reread all the stuff to see which of our "ic's" are potentially fake claimers, I mean 2.7 has done some questionable things.
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Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1591 on: January 02, 2014, 11:09:53 am »

We've stalled out again.

Walrus, what are you thinking? If you join me and manda in no-lynch we can force it through by timing out (though that's not great).

I will work towards no lynch rather than letting deadline hit, though really I would rather a volt lynch who is most likely scum. A I thought he wasscum yesterday, B rob who I thought was scum turned out to be town and probably right about volt being scum.

If you are town, please understand that this is a terrible line of thinking. Being dead town doesn't make you magically right. Robz and I were wrong about each other, like yuma and I were in GoT. I don't want it to cost us the game again!

I get that, its not like I had a town read on you though. I think your scum, robz came out crazy against you and it made me think he was a good scum partner, he flipped town but that doesn't make you less likely scum
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1592 on: January 02, 2014, 11:13:20 am »

Robz/volt scum team was not my only reasoning, I was pretty sure volt was scum and fit as a scum partner with robz well so I eventually was okay with lynchig robz as well, though even yesterday I wanted volt first. I think volt/teprocas robz said is scum. though there is still the slight chance 2.7 isscum, I need to reread all the stuff to see which of our "ic's" are potentially fake claimers, I mean 2.7 has done some questionable things.

Look at my most recent summary post (I had one a prior day as well), there is just no way in hell e isn't town. Just no way.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day2)
« Reply #1593 on: January 02, 2014, 11:41:26 am »

Long term look at volt from here:

The Unclaimed:

Voltaire
Robz
manda
Teproc
mcmcsalot

Everyone, please order these players from least scummy to most scummy.

Voltaire
Robz
manda
Teproc
mcmc

This started my volt suspicion, he says robz is least scummy and me and teproc are scum.

Then he posts this and baisically says he leans town on teproc, leaving me his main and only held up scum read.
Teproc D1:

Chooses JOAT+Role Cop as his scum PR choices, with the option of daytalk.  If he is scum, we know he was lying since Ash was a regular goon.  But scum would be lying there anyway most likely.  (unless they weren't- Ash said all or none)

Is big on Robz being scum.  Maintains this all day.  Don't know what to read into this yet without one of them flipping.  He is also against the Jorbles lynch.  He then eventually goes over to voting Morgrim after the Morgrim claim, which is something both town and scum did I am sure.  (how many scum did is a question worth reevaluating though.  Working under the assumption they chose 3 PRs means they probably have daytalk, and they must have discussed this.  But that is a different post)

D2:
A good post discussing the Jorbles NK.  Finds walrus scummy.  Maintains his scum!robz read.  Finds Jimmmmm/Ash to be town/town. Eventually lands on an Ashersky vote (pre-walrus claim).  Says a bit more but not much else to note

D3:
Sheeps my hypothetical about a Walrus fake-claim.  Mentions how there might not be any goons left.

Summary:
Big against robz.  I don't see both of them being scum.  But I could see either of them being scum.  He was basically right about Jimmmmm/Ashersky, and his vote on Ash before the walrus claim is big town points in my mind.  I am leaning town on Teproc right now.

PPE: 2

next
Robz makes me uncomfortable, and has all game. From his jumping all over me for the IC thing, to quickly agreeing with me on the Jorbles wagon, to pushing the Morgrim lynch and calling me scummy for arguing against it, to staunchly agreeing with ash prior to Walrus' claim, and now declaring Teproc as scum for little more than PoE. As if we can PoE at this stage.

Well, we can POE at this stage. Pretty well, really. Scum is among the non-claimants (unless it's you but that's not likely enough for me to worry about it today). So myself (not lynching myself), Robz, Teproc, manda, mcmc.

I think mcmc is the scummiest, followed by Robz, Teproc, manda. Robz has jumped all over the place today but I do still put weight in the D1 stuff. Teproc has kept the lynch pool open somewhat but he has two clearing-ish results on him, so I don't think he's a good lynch today. manda also has D1 stuff and doesn't look like I'd expect new scum to look.

I feel pretty good about two of mcmc/Robz/Teproc being scum, and we have the time/PRs to sort it out.

He holds on to the scum read of me and now says robz is scummy as well

This is nonsense - Robz is not my scum partner, Robz is scum! mcmc, what other than the fact that I am one of the two most likely "candidates" makes you think that I am scum? And that Robz is my partner? Nothing. I think you see two lynches you like, and you don't care which one goes through.

vote: mcmc

I don't actually think it's mcmc/Robz though. Hregh.
Then this which is the big thing, scum!volt has been trying to maintain a scum read on me and robz and a town read on teproc this whole time but doesn't want it to be obvious. he now says me and robz are an unlikely scum team, but we eventually lynch robz, who was his top townread that slipped and I live, the only one he continued to think was scum.

I think no-lynch today is the right call, but I don't want us to deadline out to it (I learned how horrid that was in Toy Story). I say we set a soft deadline at which point we'll all vote for no-lynch, but get our discussion in beforehand. Alternately, we can decide how much we want to trust Walrus to stop a kill if we risk mislynching today and go for scum right now (but I think that's a bad idea).

Robz flipping town made me suspect Teproc more but Jimmmmm as the NK has reversed all of that. mcmc is now my top suspect.

Then that, why does robz town flip make him suspect teproc? he just said me and robz probably weren't scum together, so robz flipping town should make him think I am scummy. However again the conclusion he comes to is what he wants its just wierd how he gets to it, the jimm night kill is what makes him think its me not teproc.

I think robz was definitely right, volt/teproc is scum, volt has maintained scum read on me and town read on teproc, he has since then tried to narrow it down to me and teproc and be able to easily push my mislynch, the no-lynch today helps him acomplish that as 2.7 said.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1594 on: January 02, 2014, 12:58:47 pm »


Check your quotes here.  You throw my summary of Teproc in as if it was Voltaire's summary.  Did you mean to do that?
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mcmcsalot

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1595 on: January 02, 2014, 01:08:33 pm »


Check your quotes here.  You throw my summary of Teproc in as if it was Voltaire's summary.  Did you mean to do that?

I did not mean to do that I didn't notice, I thin the case still holds up
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Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day2)
« Reply #1596 on: January 02, 2014, 01:14:58 pm »

My comments in bold.

This started my volt suspicion, he says robz is least scummy and me and teproc are scum.

This is from D2. My reads changed over time.

Then he posts this and baisically says he leans town on teproc, leaving me his main and only held up scum read.

As has already been noted, this was e referring to Teproc.

next
Robz makes me uncomfortable, and has all game. From his jumping all over me for the IC thing, to quickly agreeing with me on the Jorbles wagon, to pushing the Morgrim lynch and calling me scummy for arguing against it, to staunchly agreeing with ash prior to Walrus' claim, and now declaring Teproc as scum for little more than PoE. As if we can PoE at this stage.

Well, we can POE at this stage. Pretty well, really. Scum is among the non-claimants (unless it's you but that's not likely enough for me to worry about it today). So myself (not lynching myself), Robz, Teproc, manda, mcmc.

I think mcmc is the scummiest, followed by Robz, Teproc, manda. Robz has jumped all over the place today but I do still put weight in the D1 stuff. Teproc has kept the lynch pool open somewhat but he has two clearing-ish results on him, so I don't think he's a good lynch today. manda also has D1 stuff and doesn't look like I'd expect new scum to look.

I feel pretty good about two of mcmc/Robz/Teproc being scum, and we have the time/PRs to sort it out.

He holds on to the scum read of me and now says robz is scummy as well

Yes, this is a thing I did.

This is nonsense - Robz is not my scum partner, Robz is scum! mcmc, what other than the fact that I am one of the two most likely "candidates" makes you think that I am scum? And that Robz is my partner? Nothing. I think you see two lynches you like, and you don't care which one goes through.

vote: mcmc

I don't actually think it's mcmc/Robz though. Hregh.
Then this which is the big thing, scum!volt has been trying to maintain a scum read on me and robz and a town read on teproc this whole time but doesn't want it to be obvious. he now says me and robz are an unlikely scum team, but we eventually lynch robz, who was his top townread that slipped and I live, the only one he continued to think was scum.

I think no-lynch today is the right call, but I don't want us to deadline out to it (I learned how horrid that was in Toy Story). I say we set a soft deadline at which point we'll all vote for no-lynch, but get our discussion in beforehand. Alternately, we can decide how much we want to trust Walrus to stop a kill if we risk mislynching today and go for scum right now (but I think that's a bad idea).

Robz flipping town made me suspect Teproc more but Jimmmmm as the NK has reversed all of that. mcmc is now my top suspect.

Then that, why does robz town flip make him suspect teproc? The same reason you claimed was part of your case against me, Robz. Robz has flipped town and was so so so so so so so sure about the team being me/Teproc. Obviously wrong about me, but what about Teproc? Then I thought it through. he just said me and robz probably weren't scum together, so robz flipping town should make him think I am scummy. Yup, I do. However again the conclusion he comes to is what he wants its just wierd how he gets to it, the jimm night kill is what makes him think its me not teproc. Correct.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1597 on: January 02, 2014, 03:53:02 pm »

Voltaire, if you're so sure that e is town, what would you really gain by determining that he and I aren't pulling the wool over your eyes? Those statements seem kind of incongruous to me.

If we no lynch today, I have a 1/5 chance of blocking the kill, assuming they don't still have a strongman. We enter into the next game phase with a guaranteed lynch, assuming you believe me. Is scum allowed to not shoot I wonder? Just thought of that, they could do that to falsely increase my confidence of success I guess. But that seems like a longshot. Anyway, then plus I would be able to attempt to block again from an even smaller pool.

If I don't block it, we end up in a very dangerous situation. Probably 2 scum among 5, 1 townie misvotes and game over.

If we do lynch today, then first of all we (probably) have a 2/6 chance of hitting scum today. Either way, I have a 1/4 chance of blocking the kill. Then we would get a near-guaranteed lynch for the next day, I guess, as with above. If we do miss on the lynch, I have to block the kill, or we lose. So I guess that's a 50-50 on the game right now. Yikes. But is that much better than our odds going into the future if we no lynch? I think it might be worth it.

Here's another thing: what we ostensibly gain from a no lynch is that me and e aren't being wool-pullers right now. But do we really gain that? I could see scum pulling the following cute ploy: kill someone other than e or me tonight, which implicates one of us for a lynch...we get mislynched and lose. So maybe we don't gain anything but a barrel of WIFOM. Now I can only speak for myself of course, and I hope my corroboration with Jimmmmm for example is good evidence that I am telling the truth. And you seem quite confident about e. So that might be a risk we need to take.

I apologize for this scattered and possibly spurious reasoning, I just woke up and I'm on my phone. This post was supposed to be more meticulous and go through all the possibilities, but there are quite a few to consider. Maybe I just don't like no lynches because they seem boring. Out with a bang rather than a whimper at least!

I am also starting to think that maybe mcmc is feeling too easy of a lynch to be scum at this point. I will vote: manda. If anyone has been trying to innocuously lurk along in the background, it's her, and it seems like she'll just sort of go along with an mcmc lynch or whatever, which worries me. And she's basically been avoiding hard scrutiny this whole time. I'll have to do a reread later.
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1598 on: January 02, 2014, 03:57:32 pm »

Voltaire, if you're so sure that e is town, what would you really gain by determining that he and I aren't pulling the wool over your eyes? Those statements seem kind of incongruous to me.

Mmmm yes. There's like no chance e isn't town. There's a 0.5% chance you're fulfilling ash's greatest gambit ever. So it'd more be a "do you live" kind of thing. And I wasn't saying "maybe they'll kill someone else" in thread but that's dumb and I should stop thinking that's going to work, so that's out there.

I take it you're against no-lynch then. What about mcmc makes you think he's "too easy" of a lynch? If we're going to lynch today, I think it really should be mcmc.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Mafia XXXV: Mafia and the Chocolate Factory (Day4)
« Reply #1599 on: January 02, 2014, 04:06:21 pm »

Ok, so is the ~0+0.5% chance that he or I is scum enough to outweigh the ~5% or so difference in roleblocking chances for me? That's simplified for sure. But this is a game of probabilities as you know.

Mostly a gut feeling about mcmc, brought on by manda's general attitude towards lynching him or not or whatever...at this point I don't think scum really cares if there's a no lynch, and it doesn't take a whole lot to drive a mislynch home.
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