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[Warfreak2]

Casino, $5, Victory
Worth 1VP per Copper in the deck of the opponent with the most Copper.
---
When you buy this, choose one: either you gain it as normal, and each other player may trash any number of cards from their hand; or instead each other player gains a Curse and a copy of this, and you may trash any number of cards from your hand.

[Awaclus]

So, you don't gain a Casino when you choose option 2?

[Warfreak2]

That's correct. One player gains and the other may trash, you choose who gets what. (If they get the Casino, they also get a Curse.)

Strategically, you can either try to collect Casinos yourself while minimising the number of Coppers your opponent can trash (e.g. using discard attacks), or you can junk your opponent with worthless Casinos because they let you trash your own Copper.

[2.71828.....]

Casino, $5, Victory
Worth 1VP per Copper in the deck of the opponent with the most Copper.
---
When you buy this, choose one: either you gain it as normal, and each other player may trash any number of cards from their hand; or instead each other player gains a Curse and a copy of this, and you may trash any number of cards from your hand.

If you just bought casino, your coppers have probably been played and are no longer in your hand, which make them difficult to trash (assuming you choose option 2).  Adding some sort of clause to allow played cards to be trashed would probably help casino out a bit

[sudgy]

Do you not want it to be the player with the most copper instead of opponent?

[Awaclus]

Do you not want it to be the player with the most copper instead of opponent?

You probably don't. You have 7 starting Coppers and they are actually helpful when you're trying to hit $5, and if you can get three of these, Coppers become strictly better than Duchies.

[BadAssMutha]

This seems... way strong. Option 2 seems even better than Ill Gotten Gains, in that you give out a Curse AND a worthless VP card, PLUS get to trash junk from your own hand. The only other double-junker, Mountebank, at least gives a Copper so it doesn't completely drive the victim's economy to nothing. I don't see how you could pursue a viable Casino alt-VP buying strategy, since by the time you get even half the pile all your opponent's Copper will be gone. Maybe you could do it with some Mountebank shenanigans, or possibly Ambassador, or if some idiot tries an Apothecary engine, but I just don't see this card being worth many VP in almost any game.

[Awaclus]

This seems... way strong. Option 2 seems even better than Ill Gotten Gains, in that you give out a Curse AND a worthless VP card, PLUS get to trash junk from your own hand.

However, it's worth taking into account that you get to trash junk from your own hand after playing all the treasures you need in order to purchase a Casino, so the trashing isn't very strong. Unless there's other trashing, you will likely have quite a bit of Coppers in your deck even if you buy these, and in that case, they can be worth a lot of points for your opponent.

[Warfreak2]

The problem of not being able to trash Coppers that you have in play is intentional, otherwise it would probably just be a better Mint.

I figured it would be OK to junk a little more than Mountebank, firstly because Casino provides a way to get rid of the junk you get from your opponent's use of it (whereas Mountebank doesn't), and as Awaclus points out, it's hard to use on-buy trash-from-your-hand to make your opponent's Casinos actually worthless - of course, if you have another trasher which can get rid of all your Coppers, your opponent can probably use it to get rid of the Casinos and Curses. Buying Ill Gotten Gains does get you an often-better-than-Silver into your own deck, it's not just to junk your opponent.

[Minotaur]

The card title sounds like a fun card. I'm thinking of a self-inspecting Tribute variant.

Casino
Cost: ?
Treasure

Reveal the top three cards of your deck.
(Magic happens depending on what is revealed)

[Minotaur]

Ok, first prototype...

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+1 Buy
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. +1 coin for each treasure revealed.
If you reveal three of the same treasure, you may thrash this card and play the treasures in any order.
If you reveal three differently-named treasures, you may trash this card and play one of them.
Discard any revealed treasures which were not played and put the remaining cards on top of your deck.

[BadAssMutha]

Ok, first prototype...

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+1 Buy
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. +1 coin for each treasure revealed.
If you reveal three of the same treasure, you may thrash this card and play the treasures in any order.
If you reveal three differently-named treasures, you may trash this card and play one of them.
Discard any revealed treasures which were not played and put the remaining cards on top of your deck.

Unless you hit 3 treasures, this is a Woodcutter at best, and a Ruined Market at worst. Keep in mind that even in a deck that's 80% treasure, you only have about a 50-50 shot of drawing 3 treasures at the top of the deck.

If you do hit 3 treasures and don't trash, it's +1 buy +$3, which is probably a little weak for $5 (it's a Horse Traders without the discard but no reaction). Margrave is usually stronger, since you usually have an average card value over $1  plus it has the attack. At any rate, you're pretty likely to not be able to trash, since you probably won't get 3 of the same card OR 3 unique cards - you're probably most likely to get something like two coppers and a silver.

If you hit 3 treasures and do trash, it'll usually be +1 buy +$6. I don't think it's usually worth it to trash a $5 card just for an extra $3 to spend. Consider that Mining Village can be trashed for +$2, but also costs less and has a weak on-play effect (just a regular Village). Trashing a Casino is like using a Spoils that you had to spend a turn actually buying.

This card seems like a big-variance card (which you're probably going for with Casino), but it seems too big. Half the time, this card is a Woodcutter or worse. The other half, it's a terminal Gold, or a even single-shot for a huge payout. I wouldn't pay $5 for something that half the time is a $3 card or worse. I guess it could work in Big Money decks, but it becomes a big liability once you start to green. Its effect quickly degrades to Woodcutter levels, and you won't be able to trash it once it stops hitting. Come endgame, I'd rather have a silver. If this card could be fixed so that the no-payout option wasn't so bad, it might be a start at improving it.

[Awaclus]

Ok, first prototype...

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+1 Buy
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. +1 coin for each treasure revealed.
If you reveal three of the same treasure, you may thrash this card and play the treasures in any order.
If you reveal three differently-named treasures, you may trash this card and play one of them.
Discard any revealed treasures which were not played and put the remaining cards on top of your deck.

That's pretty complicated.

[markusin]

How about one that takes into account addiction:

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+Buy
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. +1 coin for each Treasure Card revealed, +4 coins for each Action Card revealed, gain a Curse for each Victory Card revealed. Trash the revealed Action cards and put the rest on top of your deck in any order.

Note that it's a Treasure card.

[Minotaur]

Ok, first prototype...

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+1 Buy
Reveal the top three cards of your deck. +1 coin for each treasure revealed.
If you reveal three of the same treasure, you may thrash this card and play the treasures in any order.
If you reveal three differently-named treasures, you may trash this card and play one of them.
Discard any revealed treasures which were not played and put the remaining cards on top of your deck.

Unless you hit 3 treasures, this is a Woodcutter at best, and a Ruined Market at worst. Keep in mind that even in a deck that's 80% treasure, you only have about a 50-50 shot of drawing 3 treasures at the top of the deck.

If you do hit 3 treasures and don't trash, it's +1 buy +$3, which is probably a little weak for $5 (it's a Horse Traders without the discard but no reaction). Margrave is usually stronger, since you usually have an average card value over $1  plus it has the attack. At any rate, you're pretty likely to not be able to trash, since you probably won't get 3 of the same card OR 3 unique cards - you're probably most likely to get something like two coppers and a silver.

If you hit 3 treasures and do trash, it'll usually be +1 buy +$6. I don't think it's usually worth it to trash a $5 card just for an extra $3 to spend. Consider that Mining Village can be trashed for +$2, but also costs less and has a weak on-play effect (just a regular Village). Trashing a Casino is like using a Spoils that you had to spend a turn actually buying.

This card seems like a big-variance card (which you're probably going for with Casino), but it seems too big. Half the time, this card is a Woodcutter or worse. The other half, it's a terminal Gold, or a even single-shot for a huge payout. I wouldn't pay $5 for something that half the time is a $3 card or worse. I guess it could work in Big Money decks, but it becomes a big liability once you start to green. Its effect quickly degrades to Woodcutter levels, and you won't be able to trash it once it stops hitting. Come endgame, I'd rather have a silver. If this card could be fixed so that the no-payout option wasn't so bad, it might be a start at improving it.

It's a treasure, not an action, so it'd be more fair to compare it to cards like Venture.

* It's usually a Copper or a Silver with +Buy. Wouldn't be worth 5 if this were the whole story. Probably worth 4 if it were *always* Silver + Buy. EDIT: Ok, it also sucks 1-3 treasures out of your deck this shuffle in this case.
* It has a chance of being a one-time filtering Venture +2 coins. If it turns up Copper-Silver-Platinum, your turn just got a lot better.
* It has a chance of being a one-time triple Venture. If it turns up Gold-Gold-Gold, you might be looking at double Provinces depending on the rest of your hand. Three Platinums would be 18 coins with an extra buy, or 4 from double Colonies.

It probably would need an enabler such as trashing, or it might be so swingy that it's still worth it except with junkers out.

It's probably not healthy to base a card on gambling to such an extent, though. For a fan card, it might be ok, but it would be massively unpopular to have a card 8 times more swingy than Treasure Map. I don't know how it would actually play out, though.

[Minotaur]

How about one that takes into account addiction:

Casino
Cost: 5
Treasure

+Buy
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. +1 coin for each Treasure Card revealed, +4 coins for each Action Card revealed, gain a Curse for each Victory Card revealed. Trash the revealed Action cards and put the rest on top of your deck in any order.

Note that it's a Treasure card.

Build an engine; pick these up after an attack runs out the Curse pile.

EDIT: idk about the trashing... you will probably trash a lot of $5 cards... But if it's that late in the game, whatever?

[Minotaur]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

[KingZog3]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

[Awaclus]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

And you get to choose. Though, it's still pretty weak, and it's still too complicated.

[Minotaur]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

[KingZog3]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

Venture sifting is almost always better. Yes you get to choose, but there's a change that this gives you nothing and trashes itself. Venture always give at least $2 unless you have no other treasure in your deck, then it's always $1. It might be worth $5, but more likely it's a 4, and swingy one at that. Maybe if it gave $1 at a minimum, but I still feel it's basically a more risky Venture.

[Minotaur]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

Venture sifting is almost always better. Yes you get to choose, but there's a change that this gives you nothing and trashes itself. Venture always give at least $2 unless you have no other treasure in your deck, then it's always $1. It might be worth $5, but more likely it's a 4, and swingy one at that. Maybe if it gave $1 at a minimum, but I still feel it's basically a more risky Venture.

Think about what this would look like in a treasure deck with no junking or actions. You have a 2-3 Silver, a Gold, seven Copper, and this card. Your Venture is usually worth 2, only gets played once per shuffle, and probably isn't going through your deck that quickly - it reveals 1-4 cards, most likely 1 or 2. Your Casino goes through your deck faster, you play it every turn, it gets you Silver fairly often, and it's not long before it starts turning up Gold over and over. If it's a Platinum board, you're going to be filthy rich in no time.

Now imagine if you were playing two Casinos every turn. That's every turn, compared to two Ventures per shuffle.

[2.71828.....]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

Venture sifting is almost always better. Yes you get to choose, but there's a change that this gives you nothing and trashes itself. Venture always give at least $2 unless you have no other treasure in your deck, then it's always $1. It might be worth $5, but more likely it's a 4, and swingy one at that. Maybe if it gave $1 at a minimum, but I still feel it's basically a more risky Venture.

Think about what this would look like in a treasure deck with no junking or actions. You have a 2-3 Silver, a Gold, seven Copper, and this card. Your Venture is usually worth 2, only gets played once per shuffle, and probably isn't going through your deck that quickly - it reveals 1-4 cards, most likely 1 or 2. Your Casino goes through your deck faster, you play it every turn, it gets you Silver fairly often, and it's not long before it starts turning up Gold over and over. If it's a Platinum board, you're going to be filthy rich in no time.

Now imagine if you were playing two Casinos every turn. That's every turn, compared to two Ventures per shuffle.

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5
+1 action

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

ok.  now I can maybe imagine it.  Without +action, if you have two casinos in your hand you will get at most +3 coin out of two cards, which is not good.  I would still buy venture over this card every time


EDIT:  I am really stupid and read the card wrong.  it was late last night, and I shouldn't post when I am tired.  I read it as an action card not a treasure card.

[Minotaur]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

Venture sifting is almost always better. Yes you get to choose, but there's a change that this gives you nothing and trashes itself. Venture always give at least $2 unless you have no other treasure in your deck, then it's always $1. It might be worth $5, but more likely it's a 4, and swingy one at that. Maybe if it gave $1 at a minimum, but I still feel it's basically a more risky Venture.

Think about what this would look like in a treasure deck with no junking or actions. You have a 2-3 Silver, a Gold, seven Copper, and this card. Your Venture is usually worth 2, only gets played once per shuffle, and probably isn't going through your deck that quickly - it reveals 1-4 cards, most likely 1 or 2. Your Casino goes through your deck faster, you play it every turn, it gets you Silver fairly often, and it's not long before it starts turning up Gold over and over. If it's a Platinum board, you're going to be filthy rich in no time.

Now imagine if you were playing two Casinos every turn. That's every turn, compared to two Ventures per shuffle.

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5
+1 action

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

ok.  now I can maybe imagine it.  Without +action, if you have two casinos in your hand you will get at most +3 coin out of two cards, which is not good.  I would still buy venture over this card every time

What does +1 action do if you gain it during your Buy phase by playing a treasure?

[Awaclus]

This one might be less over-the-top. There's a chance it should cost 6:

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

(Note: It top-decks itself to reflect the compulsive nature of gambling. If it needed to be a little more self-terminating, it could gain you Estates or something when it "wins".)

So it's a Venture for only the top three cards, without even the $1 and it can self trash if it misses? The only advantage is the top decking.

Yes, the top-decking is kind of a big deal, *and* it filters those three cards. Unless you're getting junked, you should be able to get a pretty good run with these in a money deck. It might even be *too* strong, but maybe not since it self-defeats eventually when you have to start greening.

Venture sifting is almost always better. Yes you get to choose, but there's a change that this gives you nothing and trashes itself. Venture always give at least $2 unless you have no other treasure in your deck, then it's always $1. It might be worth $5, but more likely it's a 4, and swingy one at that. Maybe if it gave $1 at a minimum, but I still feel it's basically a more risky Venture.

Think about what this would look like in a treasure deck with no junking or actions. You have a 2-3 Silver, a Gold, seven Copper, and this card. Your Venture is usually worth 2, only gets played once per shuffle, and probably isn't going through your deck that quickly - it reveals 1-4 cards, most likely 1 or 2. Your Casino goes through your deck faster, you play it every turn, it gets you Silver fairly often, and it's not long before it starts turning up Gold over and over. If it's a Platinum board, you're going to be filthy rich in no time.

Now imagine if you were playing two Casinos every turn. That's every turn, compared to two Ventures per shuffle.

Another Casino
Treasure
Cost: 5
+1 action

Reveal the top three cards of your deck. If you reveal any treasures, play one of your choice. Otherwise, trash this card. Discard all revealed cards which were not played. If you did not trash this card, put it on top of your deck at the start of your cleanup phase this turn.

ok.  now I can maybe imagine it.  Without +action, if you have two casinos in your hand you will get at most +3 coin out of two cards, which is not good.  I would still buy venture over this card every time

What does +1 action do if you gain it during your Buy phase by playing a treasure?

Increases Diadem's value.