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Author Topic: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?  (Read 9714 times)

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TheFinalWord

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Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« on: October 27, 2013, 11:50:35 pm »
+1

Just wondering which cards you guys think need to be toned down a bit for full game (all 3 expansions). I play with my friend a lot and think these cards are too strong.

Age 3:
Machinery: Being able to endorse it, along with the large hand sizes as well as the splaying make it too strong if put down after your opponent has moved past cards that let you knock out castles. It also lets you achieve and steal the figure. Proposed change: only swaps the highest from each persons hand.

Borderline would be Sejong who perhaps lets you tech up a bit too fast.

Age 4:
Slide Rule: With all the splaying effects in No Place like Home, it's fairly easy to get all piles splayed by age 4, and the fact that slide rule can jump you from age 4 to age 9 makes it stupidly overpowered. Proposed change: Draw a 6 if all piles splayed.

From here on I will provide a brief description of the cards ability to help you remember which is which

Age 5:
Measurement (return a card to splay right any pile and draw a card of value equal to number of cards in the stack): This is borderline probably, but with the slow teching in some games due to high card supply count it has too much potential to take you to 9 or 10 or even win the game right there.  Proposed change: Only works on one colour rather than working for any of them.

Samuel de Champlain (if you would draw a 5th card into card claim an achievement of that cards value or below, also lets you return a 5 to draw a 6): Way too good when nobody has been claiming the low achievements as happens some games. Also lets you tech to 6 instantly. Proposed change: Change the echo effect to return any card to draw a 5.

Age 6:
Nothing really here except perhaps industrialisation but I haven't had any major issues with it. I might change my mind on that later.

Age 7:
Rowland Hill (If you would claim an achievement, first return three cards from your hand. If you do, claim all other cards in your hand as achievements, ignoring eligibility). Most broken card in the game, auto win if you have 8 or so cards. Even triggers for non-standard achievements so you don't even need any score. Proposed change: Perhaps you can only claim achievements that are still available. He might be a tad underpowered but that is way better than he is now.

Emperor Meji (Draw and foreshadow an 8 or 9. If you would meld a card of value 10 and you have top cards of values 9 and 8 on your board, instead you win.
Each card in your forecast counts as being in your hand.): Techs you up 2 levels and gives you a fairly easy win condition. Proposed change: Would be ok if you could only foreshadow an 8.

Side note, why is machine gun so bad? Needs a buff imo.

Age 8+
Nothing really stands out.

Remember that this is only my opinion on the game as it is played with all 3 expansions. I'd like to get some other peoples views.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 11:14:02 am »
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One thing to note is that No Place Like Home is still in beta -- it's changed tons, and it will change tons more.
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teasel

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2013, 03:55:58 pm »
+1

have there been any more change? a month ago there was a change like every week and now nothing at all so i'm wondering what's happened
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 04:52:03 am »
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I don't know. The most recent versions of achievements have not been received well around here. On the other hand, achievements are what is most easily houseruled over, so I don't really care that much.
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 05:40:05 am »
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Just wondering which cards you guys think need to be toned down a bit for full game (all 3 expansions). I play with my friend a lot and think these cards are too strong.
Age 1: BellFlute. Was overpowered befor cities, but it's echo effect allows it, when in a stack with right- or upsplaying dogma, to gain two cities en passant. I don't mind it if it is an otherwise not too useful card like Kobukson, but Bell is the last card to need a boost.
Quote
Age 3:
Machinery: ... Proposed change: only swaps the highest from each persons hand.

I would rather use Archery then. Machinery is one of those cards which are overpowered when the stars are right, as every good Innovation dogma should be.

Quote

Age 4:
Slide Rule: With all the splaying effects in No Place like Home, it's fairly easy to get all piles splayed by age 4, and the fact that slide rule can jump you from age 4 to age 9 makes it stupidly overpowered. Proposed change: Draw a 6 if all piles splayed.

Disagree here. You'd have to be in Age 4 for quite some time before every top card is 4 or above.
Quote

From here on I will provide a brief description of the cards ability to help you remember which is which

Age 5:
Measurement ...  Proposed change: Only works on one colour rather than working for any of them.

How about: splay the colour of returned card right? Otherwise it would be a one trick pony.
Quote
Age 7:
Rowland Hill (If you would claim an achievement, first return three cards from your hand. If you do, claim all other cards in your hand as achievements, ignoring eligibility). Most broken card in the game, auto win if you have 8 or so cards. Even triggers for non-standard achievements so you don't even need any score. Proposed change: Perhaps you can only claim achievements that are still available. He might be a tad underpowered but that is way better than he is now.

I feel the game enders should not appear before Age 8, but that's a design decision.

Plus if I get owned I want to lose to Napoleon or Einstein, not to the guy who invented the postage stamp.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 03:42:56 am by ipofanes »
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ksasaki

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2013, 11:22:47 am »
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You guys think those cards are overpowered?  How about Fermenting / Reformation?  How about an early flute or lever?  I got lever on the 2nd turn was in age 4 getting age 4 cities by turn 3.    Fermenting with some of those leafy cities is especially OP.  If you got toothbrush too somehow, or flute under the reformation to splay the yellow stack left and right continuously....

Actually yesterday I was using a flute with machievelli endorsed to splay two colors right, then left again for 4 cities (up to 6 cities if you use it 3 times), then just toothbrush to tuck all the cities.

Archery: I agree with is quite powerful, especially a well timed achieve 1 + steal their forced draw.

Machinery: was always powerful, but endorsing it?  not really.

Slide Rule: has always been kinda OP, I'd say a more likely scenario though is all age 3 cards into age 8, which is still very powerful.

Measurement: I've been arguing this card is OP since echoes because of the instant end conditions.  Adding more cards is not really making it less powerful...

Rowland Hill: guy is just sick....just sick, most of the Age 7s are pretty sick, Darwin, Maxwell, etc.   If my opponent is in age 7 I make it a point to not achieve unless I will lose otherwise...

Bell: a good card, but not overpowered. 
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 03:54:41 am »
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You guys think those cards are overpowered?  How about Fermenting / Reformation?  How about an early flute or lever?
Ah, mistook Bell for Flute, my bad.

Quote
Archery: I agree with is quite powerful, especially a well timed achieve 1 + steal their forced draw.
I argued that the nerfing TheFinalWord suggested would make Machinery a gimped Archery, thus too poor for an Age 3 card.


Quote


Quote
Measurement: I've been arguing this card is OP since echoes because of the instant end conditions.  Adding more cards is not really making it less powerful...

Before Echoes, ending the game using Measurement was rare, as you'd had to be ahead by score and have built a long stack in the process, and you'd wonder what your opponent was doing in the meantime. With all the echo tucking effects, however, it does happen quite often, but not necessarily before Age 7-8. Endorse-tucking adds more of that.

Quote
Rowland Hill: guy is just sick....just sick, most of the Age 7s are pretty sick, Darwin, Maxwell, etc.   If my opponent is in age 7 I make it a point to not achieve unless I will lose otherwise...

Good point you make. Figures brought the game enders one to two ages down.
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chomskyrim

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 09:25:02 pm »
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I agree with flute, slide rule, measurement, Rowland Hill. As a side note, I think the Clock/Archimedes or Johannes Kepler victory is dumb.

I would add Watermill, Almanac, Alhazen, and Johannes Kepler as well.

Watermill went from underpowered to a little too good when the new echoes drawing rules were instituted. It has the potential to tuck and tech up massively at random. Almanac was similarly made from underpowered to overpowered when the drawing rules changed. It can end the game far too early, and with endorse actions it's stupidly good.

Alhazen and Johannes Kepler are bad for the same reason as Measurement and Slide rule - they let you tech up absurdly fast for little good reason. Personally I think the game would be a lot more elegant if the most any card could tech you up was two ages. Which is still good, but not "hey I tucked a lot of red and now I have Satellites" good. All these cards: Measurement, Slide Rule, Alhazen, and Johannes Kepler are also really flavour weak. After all, technological innovation is an inherently iterative process, but for some strange reason these guys let you skip massive amounts of history.
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 03:37:29 am »
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Personally I think the game would be a lot more elegant if the most any card could tech you up was two ages.
I would like to keep Archery as it is, if only for its flavour (aim high and shoot). Or make the limit generally "two ages beyond the most advanced civ". After all, many hosing or stealing dogmas compensate with granting cards form possibly more advanced (form the attacked civ point of view) ages.

Still disagreement on Slide Rule; you have to set your cards up so that all colours are equally advanced. A couple of Printing Press invocations usually tech you up faster.

I haven't seen too many Kepler wins so far but I agree that it should be fairly easy to set up with Fermenting etc. Clock/Archimedes are way too easy to set up.



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chomskyrim

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 12:07:05 pm »
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I agree. I don't think Archery should be changed at all. It's not teching-up, it's taking technology by force (which means that someone, somewhere, had to go through the steps to innovate to that point).
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ksasaki

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 05:36:53 pm »
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I love archery and perfume, can really equalize a very lucky teching streak, especially combined with that achieve forces you to draw, so your opponent can't do the draw / advance cycle with math or some other tech card and keep their hand empty.

Industrialization NEEDS to be changed, there is no doubt in my mind.  Since echoes it is so sick, I always have this horrible sense of dread when I see coke or my opp draw an age 6.  Change to for every 3 factories, or maybe even for every 4 factories :O.

Measurement NEEDS to be changed, it's the perfect recipe for your freshly reformed board to end the game, maybe something like the total number of cards divided by 2 (rounded up).  The stacks get so insane these days even that would be pretty powerful.

Almanac is just ridiculous, I think it should be score it and draw a card of the SAME value as the bonus (not one age higher), then it would be ok in my mind.  Not to mention almanac's echo is perfectly left positioned...

I think teching up only 2 ages a turn should be some kind of built in rule, it does feel like it spirals crazily out of control quickly now.  Age 4-5 cards are the ones where things really start to spiral out of control.
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 03:02:22 am »
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Industrialization NEEDS to be changed, there is no doubt in my mind.  Since echoes it is so sick, I always have this horrible sense of dread when I see coke or my opp draw an age 6.  Change to for every 3 factories, or maybe even for every 4 factories :O.

How about diminishing returns: 1 factory for 1, 1 + 2 for 2, 1 + 2 + 3 for 3 ...

Quote
Almanac is just ridiculous, I think it should be score it and draw a card of the SAME value as the bonus (not one age higher), then it would be ok in my mind.  Not to mention almanac's echo is perfectly left positioned...
Good point with same value, but echo on the left is not too bad. Blue is still a colour I think twice before splaying from left to right.
Quote
I think teching up only 2 ages a turn should be some kind of built in rule, it does feel like it spirals crazily out of control quickly now.  Age 4-5 cards are the ones where things really start to spiral out of control.
As you love Archery/Perfume I see that you only want to curb teching up by the tech leader. I think we could leave Measurement with this general restriction. Generally I tend to wade in low ages than to tech up quickly with Echoes. So your suggestion would rather suit my style.
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Kahryl

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 07:58:08 pm »
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BAN TROLLAND HILL

RUINS EVERY GAME HE APPEARS IN
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ksasaki

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 05:13:49 pm »
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As far as I am concerned, I don't think there should be any "instant-win" cards before age 8.  Age 8 just kind of makes sense for it to start working.

Almanac - instant win card, bad
Measurement - instant win card, bad
rowland hill - instant win card, bad
darwin
the weird archimedes / kepler + clock is weird, I've actually never been able to win with it, you have to draw both AND have a higher score, I'm ok with it ruining games once in awhile.

Anyone notice freaking fermenting is so sick now?  It's horrible....
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popsofctown

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 06:01:50 pm »
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Do people really have more issues with Rowland than Nobel?
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 02:57:48 am »
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I think they are both up there, Nobel slightly held back by the lack of a "if you claim an achievement" prerequisite. But it is easier to amass cards than icons.

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popsofctown

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2013, 06:05:14 pm »
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I think they are both up there, Nobel slightly held back by the lack of a "if you claim an achievement" prerequisite. But it is easier to amass cards than icons.
Rowland requires you to claim an achievement, Nobel does not.  That makes it much more difficult to meld Rowland and end the game that same turn.  Both are counteracted if you remove them before they end the game in their own way, so I find Nobel to be much more powerful. 
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ksasaki

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 12:04:27 pm »
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nobel is pretty good, but rowland can save you even if you're up shit creek in symbols.  I mean nobel is basically icing on the cake for your industrialized / reformed board.

In cities, it's easy enough to claim one of those flags or splay in some direction achievements, without cities maybe not so much.

If there is one card I wish were nerfed though if there could be only 1, it would be almanac.  I mean losing in age 3 is pretty demoralizing, and without many options to get rid of it.  Compass / horseshoes, perfume?  The point is there shouldn't be a card in age 3 that can end the game immediately, it's just silly.  Age 5 is even pushing it.  That's why when I made my list of 3 OP cards I said Measurement, Industrialization, and Almanac.  At least those OP heroes are in age 7, which is not particularly easy to get to.  Sure a lucky math maybe, but I found if the other player stays in 1 for awhile, there are enough weapons (archery and construction with the famous achieve / steal trick, perfume, horseshoes) that you can catch up fairly easily.  Almanac is fairly immune, kind of like fermenting.  Fermenting is definitely way OP in the cities version; however, before those 4 leaf cities and endorsements I'd say it's fine as is.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:10:12 pm by ksasaki »
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 04:09:13 am »
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Quote
At least those OP heroes are in age 7, which is not particularly easy to get to.

That's one new aspect of the expansion ("there are game enders as soon as Age 7") and I can live with that.

Quote
without many options to get rid of it.  Compass / horseshoes, perfume?

Shared Sailing/Optics/Experimentation. Granted, it is not easy to share Optics.
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TheFinalWord

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 08:36:01 am »
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Age 1: BellFlute. Was overpowered befor cities, but it's echo effect allows it, when in a stack with right- or upsplaying dogma, to gain two cities en passant. I don't mind it if it is an otherwise not too useful card like Kobukson, but Bell is the last card to need a boost.
I actually forgot about flute when I made this list. I think a nice change would be to take out its demand or move its echo to the other side. Perhaps both.
Quote
I would rather use Archery then. Machinery is one of those cards which are overpowered when the stars are right, as every good Innovation dogma should be.
I wasn't really clear with my proposed change. I meant all the highest cards from their hand with all the highest from yours. Don't forget it still lets you splay your red cards left and score a castle from your hand. It also still lets you steal figures after an achieve but it has a downside which I believe makes demand cards more interesting and strategical.
Quote

Disagree here. You'd have to be in Age 4 for quite some time before every top card is 4 or above.

Well yeah I don't get to age 9 most of the time but getting to 7 or 8 is fairly easy. It just techs up so much faster then most other cards.
Quote
How about for Measurement: splay the colour of returned card right? Otherwise it would be a one trick pony.
This doesn't solve the problem of you being able to pick your largest pile though


I don't mind losing to Nobel because it generally means I'm way behind in icons and they need to have at least 4-5 achievements already.

I'm on the fence about Alamanac. Maybe a small change like "You may score a card from your forecast with a bonus. If you do, draw and foreshadow a card of value one higher than the scored card’s bonus." Being changed to "You may score a card from your forecast with a bonus. If you do, draw and foreshadow a card of value one higher." This prevents you being able to jump more then one age at a time.
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ksasaki

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 11:16:09 am »
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Even if you jump only one age at a time, almanac is still too overpowered.  Simply having the means to end the game in age 3 is ridiculous. 
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ipofanes

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Re: Cards that may be too strong with all expansions?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 05:59:19 am »
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Just wondering which cards you guys think need to be toned down a bit for full game (all 3 expansions). I play with my friend a lot and think these cards are too strong.
[...]
Age 7:
[...]
Emperor Meji (Draw and foreshadow an 8 or 9. If you would meld a card of value 10 and you have top cards of values 9 and 8 on your board, instead you win.
Each card in your forecast counts as being in your hand.): Techs you up 2 levels and gives you a fairly easy win condition. Proposed change: Would be ok if you could only foreshadow an 8.

Took me a couple of months and quite a couple of games in experience to reply to this.

Sounds so strong, but each time I try to win by Emperor Meiji, my opponent wins faster than me, on achievements or on whatever. It takes a considerable number of turns to pull his ability off.

That being said, the "Each card in your forecast counts as being in your hand" is nice enough that I welcome him almost every time I draw him.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:00:24 am by ipofanes »
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