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[jaybeez]

A lot of people dislike Tournament, and I am one of them.  But one thing I actually really like about Tournament is how it's very strong in the early game, but gets weaker in the mid and late game as your opponent starts buying Provinces.  So I was thinking of how Tournament could be made less annoying, while keeping that same mechanic.  And I thought, what if you just eliminated the Prizes?  What if Tournament's text was just like this:

+1 Action
Each player may reveal a Province from his hand.  If you do, gain a Duchy.  If no one does, +1 Card and +$1.

It'd still be a great opener.  It would still get weaker in the mid to late game.  But if it gains only Duchies, and doesn't topdeck them, its main function would be more to boost your early economy, and then give you some endgame control with the virtual +Buy.  And the fact that you only get the +1 Card, +$1 bonus if you also do not reveal a Province would make for some interesting tactical decisions in the late game.  I think it would still be interesting, and still be a strong card, but would be way less annoying.  Thoughts?

(Also, apologies if this should have gone in the Variants and Fan Cards section).

EDIT: another idea I had was to make it so Tournament doesn't gain you Prizes, but can be played as a Prize when you reveal a Province, like Band of Misfits.  That way we can keep the shiny Prizes (which are fun to play if you get them!) but effectively give players equal access to them.  The race to win the first Tournament would still be important, but would be less likely to be game-deciding, I think.  And also playing Followers or whatever a lot would require you to build a deck where you can consistently line up Provinces and Tournaments, which takes skill.  More skill than lucking into a key Prize and then just having it in your deck, certainly.

[dondon151]

You could also give Prizes the Madman/Spoils clause and return them to the Prize pile when played.

[itchiko]

maybe i am strange but i would actually have fixed it the other way around. The prizes are fun and are what make Tournament a really special card. The problem is that it is also a very good card anyway (a market variant costing 4 for the early game that is very strong).

My fix would be to remove the +1$ out of it.

Early game it is now just a cantrip. It doesn't help you buy provinces or anything else. So now except a few edge case you will have to define a game plan with out it at first and then when you will be in measure to buy your first province (or probably a little before) you will have the choice to add some in your deck or not but that will be a strategic decision which will be decided by kingdom and board decision. The effect is still strong: if everything goes perfect you win your shining price in hand but the card is now not an auto play any longer.

That said i also really like the idea of the return the prize to the pile after use.

[pst]

You could also give Prizes the Madman/Spoils clause and return them to the Prize pile when played.

But maybe playing the same prize several times a turn, because you rewin it after playing it, should be avoided?

[eHalcyon]

You could also give Prizes the Madman/Spoils clause and return them to the Prize pile when played.

But maybe playing the same prize several times a turn, because you rewin it after playing it, should be avoided?

Return them when discarded from play.

[GendoIkari]

You could also give Prizes the Madman/Spoils clause and return them to the Prize pile when played.

But maybe playing the same prize several times a turn, because you rewin it after playing it, should be avoided?

I disagree. It would be pretty difficult to build a deck that can do that; just as currently gaining more than one prize in a turn is difficult. I don't see a reason to go out of the way to limit that possibility.

[Awaclus]

So, the Princess becomes a one-night stand.

[PSGarak]

If you want to fix Tournament, it's important to identify what it is about Tournament that you think is the problem. There are several issues that can be had, some of which some players think are OK, or even desirable. It's perfectly possible for two players to "fix" Tournament, each in a way that the other thinks is worse than the original.

• Severe first-turn advantage: Whoever gets the first prize is at a significant advantage, due in no small part to the prizes being unique.
• Luck-based: Superior or (identical play) can lose due to shuffle luck.
• It makes the winning player win more, which is the opposite of regular dominion. By making Provinces an asset rather than a deadweight, it reverses the primary strategic consideration of the game.
• Swingy. This is sort of an undercurrent to all of the above, but you can dislike the swinginess without thinking any of the above is a problem.
• Tends towards mirror-matches, because Prizes are too powerful to ignore and because also rushing Provinces will dampen your opponent's Tournaments.
  

Of these I think (3) is the least-common complaint, and (1) is the most-common, but that's just a gut. Personally, I dislike it for (3), (4), and (5).

Removing the Prizes addresses points (1), (4), and (5). I also think it nerfs the card considerably, because the power of Prizes are a core component of the card, and it also niches it to Duchy-based strategies. I would be interested to try it, because I'm rather a fan of Duchy strategies, but it also turns such an iconic card so vanilla that I barely get excited about it.

[sudgy]

If you want to fix Tournament, it's important to identify what it is about Tournament that you think is the problem. There are several issues that can be had, some of which some players think are OK, or even desirable. It's perfectly possible for two players to "fix" Tournament, each in a way that the other thinks is worse than the original.

• Severe first-turn advantage: Whoever gets the first prize is at a significant advantage, due in no small part to the prizes being unique.
• Luck-based: Superior or (identical play) can lose due to shuffle luck.
• It makes the winning player win more, which is the opposite of regular dominion. By making Provinces an asset rather than a deadweight, it reverses the primary strategic consideration of the game.
• Swingy. This is sort of an undercurrent to all of the above, but you can dislike the swinginess without thinking any of the above is a problem.
• Tends towards mirror-matches, because Prizes are too powerful to ignore and because also rushing Provinces will dampen your opponent's Tournaments.
  

Of these I think (3) is the least-common complaint, and (1) is the most-common, but that's just a gut. Personally, I dislike it for (3), (4), and (5).

Removing the Prizes addresses points (1), (4), and (5). I also think it nerfs the card considerably, because the power of Prizes are a core component of the card, and it also niches it to Duchy-based strategies. I would be interested to try it, because I'm rather a fan of Duchy strategies, but it also turns such an iconic card so vanilla that I barely get excited about it.

It's (2) that I dislike the most about it, myself.

[PitzerMike]

This belongs in the Tournament forum, no?



 

[Awaclus]

One way of making Tournament less shuffle luck based is allowing the reveal from hand or discard pile (for both players).

[Davio]

One way of making Tournament less shuffle luck based is allowing the reveal from hand or discard pile (for both players).

I don't think so.

This makes it too easy for the first player to get a Province to get a bunch of prizes.
You can just keep playing Tournaments and revealing the same Province from your discard pile.
In fact, this makes it very easy to immediately gain prizes as soon as you get your first Province.

The race to the first Province becomes even more important than trying to do some work to bring Tournament and Province together in the same hand.

[Awaclus]

One way of making Tournament less shuffle luck based is allowing the reveal from hand or discard pile (for both players).

I don't think so.

This makes it too easy for the first player to get a Province to get a bunch of prizes.
You can just keep playing Tournaments and revealing the same Province from your discard pile.
In fact, this makes it very easy to immediately gain prizes as soon as you get your first Province.

The race to the first Province becomes even more important than trying to do some work to bring Tournament and Province together in the same hand.

I think that the race to the first Province is kind of the point of Tournament; at least it's the reason why I like Tournament.

[Davio]

Well, yeah, but if getting to the first Province is enough, it's even more luck based than it already is!

[AdamH]

The reason I don't like Tournament (and Black Market, and to some extent Knights) is because it provides opportunities to one player that are not available to the other player. If Princess is the only +Buy on the board then one player has a significant advantage that the other doesn't even have access to. Followers is the biggest offender here. I mean, you can do things to increase your odds but most of the time it just comes down to who gets the right draw first. Who draws Chapel from the BM deck and who draws Fool's Gold.

I've thought about making prize piles for each prize, where there are ten copies of each, sort of like the Mercenary pile. This would really help Tournament for me, but it requires 45 blanks and I find Dominion very satisfying without Tournament.

[Davio]

I feel the same way.

I love Dominion because of its symmetry in the cards you can gain and accept the asymmetry that derives from shuffling and strategic choices. If you can gain a card that I cannot, that's already screwing with the balance in a not so subtle way.

Tournament feels more like a Promo than many of the Promos do (Walled Village and Envoy in particular).

I can understand people might like the variation cards like Tournament, Knights, etc. provide, but I don't. I think other card games do a pretty good job with asymmetry (Android: Netrunner, MTG), Dominion can do without.

[Witherweaver]

On a kind of related note, how exactly is Tournament supposed to work in 3+ player Dominion?  I hardly ever play more than two players, but I was doing the Cornucopia Adventure and one of the bosses that had three opponents had Tournament on the board.  It basically seemed like one of the bots would rush Tournament+Province and get a fast prize, until a few more bots got Provinces, then the chances that one would be revealed would be pretty high.  Trying to play Tournaments yourself is like going in for a lucky die roll.

Since it's more likely that a Province will be revealed when there are more opponents, Tournament is weaker.  However, if players go for an alternate VP strategy, then Tournaments are very good.  It's difficult to figure out what to do.

(In the Adventure in question, Gardens was available for alternative VP, which is what I used to get past it.)

[jaybeez]

I think Tournament is even more unbalanced in multiplayer, because of its significant first-player advantage.  In two-player Dominion, the first seat has an advantage.  In three-player, the first set has an advantage over the second, and they both have an advantage over the third seat, etc.  Winning from the fourth seat in a Tournament game is extremely difficult.

[florrat]

I might be the only one here, but I like Tournament the way it is. Yes, it is a little more luck-based than most other cards, and might also have a little more first player advantage than some other cards (but not more than Sea Hag, for example), but I don't care. If you want to play a game without luck involved, maybe you should play a game other than Dominion...

I like the uniqueness and the special mechanics of Tournament.

[ycz6]

If you want to play a game without luck involved, maybe you should play a game other than Dominion...

Well, "Dominion with nerfed Tournament" is a game other than Dominion, isn't it?

[eHalcyon]

I might be the only one here, but I like Tournament the way it is. Yes, it is a little more luck-based than most other cards, and might also have a little more first player advantage than some other cards (but not more than Sea Hag, for example), but I don't care. If you want to play a game without luck involved, maybe you should play a game other than Dominion...

I like the uniqueness and the special mechanics of Tournament.

For people who don't like Tournament, it's probably not a matter of not wanting luck -- it's about not wanting so much luck.  On plenty of boards, missing Followers or Princess can be game over right there.  That's one lucky event that can determine the entire game.  With most other cards, an opponent's luck can be overcome with some luck of your own, but exclusive prizes means that it's much less likely with Tournament.

[ftl]

I'd guess that it's not just that there's more luck, it's that it's one particular extremely visible luck-driven event. I think other boards can have things happen which are as lucky or unlucky as getting the first prize, but Tournament (like Black Market) is just so in your face about it.

[ehunt]

My beef with tournament isn't luck. It's that the "just spam tournaments" strategy is too strong. Yes, there's almost always a better strategy, but you can just get clobbered anyway because there's rarely a MUCH better strategy. And unlike other cards, it's hard to overcome early bad luck against a player with skill (like knowing when to buy Duchy or sneaky three-piling) because of the game acceleration

[Stealth Tomato]

Here's a really goofy variation on Tournament. I started with the idea "What if it returned the Province to the Supply?" and built from there. It gains the ability to return different Victory cards (most typically Estates). This made it too strong with the Peddler effect, so I changed it to the Village effect. I've probably done too much, but it's food for thought if anyone wants to play around with some of the ideas.

Tournament II - $4

+1 Action
You may return a Victory card from your hand to the Supply. If you do, you may gain a Duchy, putting it on top of your deck. If you returned a Province, you may additionally gain a Prize (from the Prize pile), putting it on top of your deck.
Each opponent may reveal a Province from his hand.  If no-one does, +1 Card +1 Action.

[Warfreak2]

Ouch, returning a Province is expensive! Followers is nice, but it's not worth $8 with a Treasure Map problem.

[werothegreat]

maybe i am strange but i would actually have fixed it the other way around. The prizes are fun and are what make Tournament a really special card. The problem is that it is also a very good card anyway (a market variant costing 4 for the early game that is very strong).

My fix would be to remove the +1$ out of it.

That would be a terrible idea.  Tournament is constructed to help get you to Province as quickly as possible - if you take out that +$1, it suddenly no longer does that.  Without it, it is now simply a cantrip.

[Awaclus]

Ouch, returning a Province is expensive! Followers is nice, but it's not worth $8 with a Treasure Map problem.

But it seems to be worth at least $8. And there is no Treasure Map problem, because you don't return the Province until you connect it with Tournament.

[AJD]

maybe i am strange but i would actually have fixed it the other way around. The prizes are fun and are what make Tournament a really special card. The problem is that it is also a very good card anyway (a market variant costing 4 for the early game that is very strong).

My fix would be to remove the +1$ out of it.

That would be a terrible idea.  Tournament is constructed to help get you to Province as quickly as possible - if you take out that +$1, it suddenly no longer does that.  Without it, it is now simply a cantrip.

I wouldn't say Tournament is constructed to help you get a province as quickly as possible per se. It is constructed to give a decent reward if nobody else has a province, though, and Peddler was the decent reward Donald X ended up settling on. "Do-nothing cantrip" wouldn't be much of a reward.

[pst]

I wouldn't say Tournament is constructed to help you get a province as quickly as possible per se. It is constructed to give a decent reward if nobody else has a province, though, and Peddler was the decent reward Donald X ended up settling on. "Do-nothing cantrip" wouldn't be much of a reward.

I agree. There needs to be a reward, but the problem (if there is one) is that this reward makes you get that Province quicker, and the whole game accelerates. Maybe it would have been more interesting if the reward didn't help you (directly) in getting that Province, like if it was like a Quarry, or a Monument. Or it could have been a attack, making it harder for everyone to get that first Province.

[Stealth Tomato]

Ouch, returning a Province is expensive! Followers is nice, but it's not worth $8 with a Treasure Map problem.

You can also gain a Duchy, which potentially eases the sting of the Province return, but I'm not sure if it's enough. Trashing the Province obviously isn't an option as it shortens the game too much.

I want Tournament to require Duchies (thus forcing a semi-choice between Duchy rushing and going for Provinces), but that also makes the gain-a-Duchy clause stupid. What if Tournament required a novel Victory card that accompanies it in the Supply? What if that card became cheaper as copies of it are gained, so as to reduce the purchase luck component?

Tournament III - $4 Action
+1 Action
Each player may reveal a Field from his hand. If you do, trash it and gain a Prize (from the Prize pile) and/or a Duchy, putting them on top of your deck in any order. If no-one else does, +1 Card +1 Coin.
Setup: Add the Field pile to the Supply.

-----------------------------

Field - $8* Victory
3 VP
When you gain this, place a Field token on top of the Field Supply pile.
This costs 1 Coin less per Field token on the Field Supply pile.

Field is a bit of an oddity in that it becomes strictly better than Duchy once three have been bought. I am, however, not convinced this is a bad thing. Also, the wording is designed such that the value of the card universally declines; that is, if four Fields have been gained, it is worth $4 for Remodel-type purposes.

I also briefly considered a version that can gain Provinces (and returns to an OR clause instead of AND/OR), but I don't like it as much.

Tournament III' - $4 Action
+1 Action
Each player may reveal a Field from his hand. If you do, trash it and gain a Prize (from the Prize pile) or a Province, putting it on top of your deck. If no-one else does, +1 Card +1 Coin.
Setup: Add the Field pile to the Supply.

[Warfreak2]

there is no Treasure Map problem, because you don't return the Province until you connect it with Tournament.

What? The problem of having to connect two cards together in your hand for them to be worth anything is the Treasure Map problem.

[Polk5440]

Here's another idea: Each player could have their own prize pile. For me, that would fix most of what I dislike about the card -- unequal access and compounding first player advantage.

I don't mind -- maybe even like -- cards like Treasure Map that increase variance all around. Tournament increases variance by giving the player in the lead a bigger lead. That's not as fun.

I also like the idea about returning prizes after they are discarded from play; that's something that can easily be implemented with a house rule.

Edit: clarifications.

[Awaclus]

there is no Treasure Map problem, because you don't return the Province until you connect it with Tournament.

What? The problem of having to connect two cards together in your hand for them to be worth anything is the Treasure Map problem.

Since when are unreturned Provinces worth nothing?

[Warfreak2]

I think it's really really obvious that buying Followers for $8 is a much better deal than buying a Province for $8, waiting to connect it with Tournament (which you have to also buy), and then swapping the Province for a Followers. Connecting two cards in your deck is the Treasure Map problem. If buying a Province and returning it with Tournament is basically the same as buying Followers for $8, then buying a second Treasure Map is basically the same as buying four Golds for $4. I don't see how there can be any controversy about that.

[Awaclus]

I think it's really really obvious that buying Followers for $8 is a much better deal than buying a Province for $8, waiting to connect it with Tournament (which you have to also buy), and then swapping the Province for a Followers. Connecting two cards in your deck is the Treasure Map problem. If buying a Province and returning it with Tournament is basically the same as buying Followers for $8, then buying a second Treasure Map is basically the same as buying four Golds for $4. I don't see how there can be any controversy about that.

There wouldn't be, if the second Treasure Map was also worth 6 VP in case it never got trashed and counted towards emptying the most relevant pile, and if the first Treasure Map was a Peddler whenever you play it without the other TM.

[Warfreak2]

Treasure Maps are hard to connect, but like, not that hard. If you're the one going for Followers (and let's be realistic, I am not going to contest it), that Province isn't still going to be in your deck by the end of the game, so it doesn't matter that it would be worth 6VP if it was.

I am talking about the abstract idea of the Treasure Map problem (connecting two particular cards in your deck is difficult to do, you don't get your payoff until about 6 turns later). You seem to be talking about the actual Treasure Map card (which happens to not be worth 6VP or +$1, but that is irrelevant to the problem of connecting them), which is a distraction.

[Awaclus]

Treasure Maps are hard to connect, but like, not that hard. If you're the one going for Followers (and let's be realistic, I am not going to contest it), that Province isn't still going to be in your deck by the end of the game, so it doesn't matter that it would be worth 6VP if it was.

I am talking about the abstract idea of the Treasure Map problem (connecting two particular cards in your deck is difficult to do, you don't get your payoff until about 6 turns later). You seem to be talking about the actual Treasure Map card (which happens to not be worth 6VP or +$1, but that is irrelevant to the problem of connecting them), which is a distraction.

The problem is a problem only because the actual Treasure Map cards are dead unless they connect. There is no reason to purchase a Treasure Map for any purpose except for hoping them to connect. You are going to buy Provinces anyway, so the "problem" this proposed fixed Tournament isn't the Treasure Map problem, it's the Wishing Well "problem": sometimes it does more, sometimes it does less. And that isn't a problem, that is a feature.

[Warfreak2]

You are either missing or evading the point, which is that Followers would be a lot more expensive than just the $8 you paid for the Province, not least because you don't actually get the Followers until 6-8 weeks later.

[Awaclus]

You are either missing or evading the point, which is that Followers would be a lot more expensive than just the $8 you paid for the Province, not least because you don't actually get the Followers until 6-8 weeks later.

I don't think that's a problem.