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Author Topic: Top 4 Common Archetypes  (Read 4780 times)

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XerxesPraelor

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Top 4 Common Archetypes
« on: October 23, 2013, 06:55:14 am »
+1

Okay, this might belong in the general dominion section, but I think it's pretty useful to think about these when designing cards, whether you want to follow them or not.

Number 4: +2 Cards +1 Action. Laboratory is the simplest version of this card, but many other cards, such as Advisor, Warehouse, and Hunting Party fit into it as well. Most cards based on this have good self-synergy and can cost a lot. The effect has a cost of $5, as Laboratory shows.

Number 3: +$2, +1 Buy. Again, woodcutter is the simplest form of this, but other cards like Nomad Camp, Bridge, Merchant Guild, and even Festival can fit in. It's worth $3.

Number 2: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1. This is the only of the top 4 without something exactly it. There are surprisingly many versions of this card, including Market, Peddler, Highway, Baker, Tournament, Treasury, Grand Market and probably more that I forgot.

Number 1: +1 Card, +2 Actions. This is by far the most common of the archetypes, even having a name all to itself for the effect. Versions of it include Village, Mining Village, Worker's Village, Fishing Village, Native Village, Border Village, Bazaar, City, Farming Village, Bandit Camp, Fortress, Wandering Minstrel, Plaza, Hamlet, Shanty Town, and Walled Village. That's 16 cards that do almost the same thing! I guess they are so common because the effect is useful and enjoyable to have in many different types of games.


Okay, looking back at the 4 archtypes, each of them is primarily responsible for one of the vanilla actions. Only the +Buy one does not have the cantrip effect, and that is because in order to use buys well, you need to have money to buy things with. That is why it has money, I believe. Number 2, the money cantrip, is interesting because its worth is somewhere between 4 and 5, and so it cannot be priced as a normal card. I think number 2 is probably the archetype most open for new cards in, because its position allows complications to bring it to a whole number, and because there is not vanilla card for it, it cannot be strictly better than another card.


Whether you want to create wholly new cards or to stick to something tried-and-true, it's important to know the common archetypes either to create new versions of them, or to make sure your card does not fall into any of them.
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Ozle

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 08:04:26 am »
+5

You have missed out my favourite .....Archetype
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 08:39:57 am »
+3

You have missed out my favourite .....Archetype

Though I wouldn't say he's particularly common.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 11:06:42 am »
0

Good general classification of actions, but I would include +3 Cards (terminal draw) as an archetype as well. Your only non-cantrip archetype gives +$, but +cards is an important one as well. Cards in this class include Smithy, Hunting Grounds, Ghost Ship, Moat, Catacombs, Margrave, Council Room, Wharf, Library, and many others. The village archetype would be a lot less useful without these important cards!
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Kirian

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 02:06:29 pm »
0

Good general classification of actions, but I would include +3 Cards (terminal draw) as an archetype as well. Your only non-cantrip archetype gives +$, but +cards is an important one as well. Cards in this class include Smithy, Hunting Grounds, Ghost Ship, Moat, Catacombs, Margrave, Council Room, Wharf, Library, and many others. The village archetype would be a lot less useful without these important cards!

Indeed, I'm pretty certain there are many more Smithy variants than Lab variants.  I count only 7 of the latter, and only if you include Wishing Well.  I count at least nine +3 Cards variants, and that doesn't include +2 Cards with a bonus (Oracle, for instance).
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AJD

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 02:15:58 pm »
0

Good general classification of actions, but I would include +3 Cards (terminal draw) as an archetype as well. Your only non-cantrip archetype gives +$, but +cards is an important one as well. Cards in this class include Smithy, Hunting Grounds, Ghost Ship, Moat, Catacombs, Margrave, Council Room, Wharf, Library, and many others. The village archetype would be a lot less useful without these important cards!

Indeed, I'm pretty certain there are many more Smithy variants than Lab variants.  I count only 7 of the latter, and only if you include Wishing Well.  I count at least nine +3 Cards variants, and that doesn't include +2 Cards with a bonus (Oracle, for instance).

Hmm, which of the following 10 do you not count as Lab variants?:
Laboratory, Alchemist, Advisor, Stables, Madman, Caravan, Hunting Party, Menagerie, Wishing Well, Vagrant
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Kirian

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 02:29:49 pm »
0

Good general classification of actions, but I would include +3 Cards (terminal draw) as an archetype as well. Your only non-cantrip archetype gives +$, but +cards is an important one as well. Cards in this class include Smithy, Hunting Grounds, Ghost Ship, Moat, Catacombs, Margrave, Council Room, Wharf, Library, and many others. The village archetype would be a lot less useful without these important cards!

Indeed, I'm pretty certain there are many more Smithy variants than Lab variants.  I count only 7 of the latter, and only if you include Wishing Well.  I count at least nine +3 Cards variants, and that doesn't include +2 Cards with a bonus (Oracle, for instance).

Hmm, which of the following 10 do you not count as Lab variants?:
Laboratory, Alchemist, Advisor, Stables, Madman, Caravan, Hunting Party, Menagerie, Wishing Well, Vagrant

Madman:  Can't be bought, gives +2 Actions, usually draws at least 4 cards.  Seriously, Madman is so crazy that it doesn't fit any archetype.
Menagerie:  Does not readily self-synergize except in meticulously constructed decks.  Without support, it's really not much better than a cantrip.
Vagrant:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip if your deck is thoroughly junked.
Wishing Well:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip with luck or good deck-tracking.

In fact, I'd group those last three into their own group, along with Apothecary, Scout, Herald, and Ironmonger:  Cantrip + draw 0-N cards [+ Bonus].
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AJD

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 02:41:53 pm »
0

Menagerie:  Does not readily self-synergize except in meticulously constructed decks.  Without support, it's really not much better than a cantrip.
Vagrant:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip if your deck is thoroughly junked.
Wishing Well:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip with luck or good deck-tracking.

In fact, I'd group those last three into their own group, along with Apothecary, Scout, Herald, and Ironmonger:  Cantrip + draw 0-N cards [+ Bonus].

Scrying Pool more than Scout, surely—Scout can draw 0 total. Then there's City, as well.
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Kirian

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 02:46:38 pm »
+2

Menagerie:  Does not readily self-synergize except in meticulously constructed decks.  Without support, it's really not much better than a cantrip.
Vagrant:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip if your deck is thoroughly junked.
Wishing Well:  Does not self-synergize.  Is only better than a cantrip with luck or good deck-tracking.

In fact, I'd group those last three into their own group, along with Apothecary, Scout, Herald, and Ironmonger:  Cantrip + draw 0-N cards [+ Bonus].

Scrying Pool more than Scout, surely—Scout can draw 0 total. Then there's City, as well.

True, Scout wouldn't belong in that grouping very well, though Pool can also draw 0 total Kirian can't count to one.

City has +2 Actions.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 03:22:22 pm by Kirian »
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amalloy

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 02:58:49 pm »
+4

How can Scrying Pool draw 0 cards, unless your deck is already drawn?
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Kirian

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 03:21:44 pm »
0

How can Scrying Pool draw 0 cards, unless your deck is already drawn?

Oh, wait, duh.  Never mind.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2013, 03:49:49 pm »
0

Okay, looking back at the 4 archtypes, each of them is primarily responsible for one of the vanilla actions. Only the +Buy one does not have the cantrip effect, and that is because in order to use buys well, you need to have money to buy things with. That is why it has money, I believe. Number 2, the money cantrip, is interesting because its worth is somewhere between 4 and 5, and so it cannot be priced as a normal card. I think number 2 is probably the archetype most open for new cards in, because its position allows complications to bring it to a whole number, and because there is not vanilla card for it, it cannot be strictly better than another card.

There is cantrip +Buy -- Market, Grand Market, Market Square.  A straight up cantrip +$1 is commonly agreed to be worth $4, not between $4 and $5.
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AJD

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2013, 04:39:36 pm »
0

A straight up cantrip +$1 is commonly agreed to be worth $4, not between $4 and $5.

If it were a $4, it'd probably be a pretty strong $4, anyway.

(not like any of us have ever playtested it at that cost)
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dondon151

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 05:07:27 pm »
0

Number 0: Each other player gains a Curse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2013, 05:10:37 pm »
0

Number 0: Each other player gains a Curse.

That card would be impossible to price. Too strong at $3, worse than Sea Hag at $4.
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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2013, 06:40:30 pm »
0

Number 2: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1. This is the only of the top 4 without something exactly it.
Isn't Peddler exactly that?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2013, 06:50:42 pm »
0

Number 2: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1. This is the only of the top 4 without something exactly it.
Isn't Peddler exactly that?

It's not, because Peddler has that whole cost reduction thing going on that really changes how it plays.
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Archetype

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Re: Top 4 Common Archetypes
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2013, 11:15:40 pm »
+2

You have missed out my favourite .....Archetype
<3
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