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joefunk

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Trains
« on: October 22, 2013, 12:07:16 am »
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Has anyone else played this one yet? It's a deckbuilder that also has a board that you can get points from. You can also choose to avoid the board entirely and buy victory point cards.

Many of the cards and concepts are exact copies of Dominion. There are train cards that are exact equivalents to silver and gold. You also start out with a hand of seven copper equivalent trains and three cards that you can use to build on the board. When you build on the board or buy VP cards, you gain a waste card, which is basically a  curse that is worth 0 instead of -1.

Instead of having one buy and one action, you have an infinite number of each. Based on the three games that I have played of this, your best bet I'd to almost completely ignore the board, which kind of defeats the purpose of the game in my opinion. I don't think there are any attack cards either, so Big Money with action cards that draw cards or hunt for treasure cards sends really dominant.

I would be interested to hear any other opinions on this game to see if anyone has had success with strategies that mainly consist of playing the board instead of going for big money super turns.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/121408/trains
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Ratsia

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Re: Trains
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 02:26:53 am »
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Has anyone else played this one yet? It's a deckbuilder that also has a board that you can get points from. You can also choose to avoid the board entirely and buy victory point cards.
I played a few games in 2012, right after the Japanese version was released. Adding the board (or any other type of spatial dimension) in a deck-builder was something I had been waiting for some time already when the game was launched, and I think Trains does it quite well. Both the board and the regular VP cards are feasible ways of obtaining points and usually it is a good idea to invest a bit on both, so at least the basic balancing is fairly okay.

As a deck-builder the game is quite ordinary. It uses confusions and has semi-efficient ways of getting rid of them, as well as decent enough trashing in general to attempt some sort of engines. However, the engines never get quite as extreme as in Dominion, probably largely because of the simplified gameplay that allows infinite actions. In as sense, it's a bit like playing dumbed-down Dominion just with the base set. I did like the game, but I'm not sure whether there's enough depth for very long-term playing.

Quote
Based on the three games that I have played of this, your best bet I'd to almost completely ignore the board, which kind of defeats the purpose of the game in my opinion.
A few notes on this: There are certainly setups for which this holds and the feasibility of the map also depends on the number of players. However, I do think there are also setups with efficient map-building engines (for example the cards that avoid waste when laying track should help here; then the points on the map become almost like VP chips). I might be wrong though, since I definitely have not played enough to claim reasonable knowledge of the strategies.
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flies

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Re: Trains
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 11:59:15 am »
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It's important to note that the province/duchy counterparts have a significantly lower VP/cost ratio as compared with Dominion (Tower costs 5 and is worth 2VP, Skyscraper costs 8 and is worth 4VP).  So building stations and track is probably going to be worthwhile.

The thing I didn't like about the game is that all the ways of getting points put junk (Waste = Confusion) in your deck.  I don't want to junk myself every time I get points. 
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Kuildeous

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Re: Trains
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 12:15:09 pm »
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The thing I didn't like about the game is that all the ways of getting points put junk (Waste = Confusion) in your deck.  I don't want to junk myself every time I get points. 

Haven't seen the game at all, so forgive me if I speak out of turn.

But keep in mind that Dominion also junks your deck when you gain VPs. And by that, I mean the base set. Before Intrigue came out, the only way to win was to junk our decks. It wasn't until later that we got cards like Great Hall, Goons, and Tunnel.

And in most Dominion games, you still have to junk your deck.
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Watno

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Re: Trains
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 01:55:50 pm »
+1

I played it twice and didn't like it all.
Like many deckbuilders, it lacks the the thing that makes Dominion so fun: The possibility of huge card combos that let you cool stuff with your hand. You just draw your hand and play those cards, maybe drawing a few more cards in the process. But you can't do something like Village-Smithy-Village-Smithy.
Also, I don't really like the board mechanism that let's you reap the fruit of other's buildings. Plus I feel the starting position might be to important.
Furthermore, I feel lots of the cards are too close to cards from Dominion. I mean they have 2 coins for $3, 3 coins for $6, Wishing Well for $3, Lab for $5 (minus nonexistant actions). I mean I don't have anything against games using Dominion's deckbuilding mechanics, but straight up copying cards?
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Dsell

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Re: Trains
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 02:24:33 pm »
+1

I played it twice and didn't like it all.
Like many deckbuilders, it lacks the the thing that makes Dominion so fun: The possibility of huge card combos that let you cool stuff with your hand. You just draw your hand and play those cards, maybe drawing a few more cards in the process. But you can't do something like Village-Smithy-Village-Smithy.
Also, I don't really like the board mechanism that let's you reap the fruit of other's buildings. Plus I feel the starting position might be to important.
Furthermore, I feel lots of the cards are too close to cards from Dominion. I mean they have 2 coins for $3, 3 coins for $6, Wishing Well for $3, Lab for $5 (minus nonexistant actions). I mean I don't have anything against games using Dominion's deckbuilding mechanics, but straight up copying cards?

So it's really a moat for $5? I can see why building engines would be harder.

Having a lot of actions is what facilitates engines, but if you just have unlimited actions, I guess you have to limit the drawing or else mega engines will be only viable strategy. I like actions as a limiting factor. (Disclaimer: I haven't played Trains)
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joefunk

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Re: Trains
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 01:08:33 am »
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Having a lot of actions is what facilitates engines, but if you just have unlimited actions, I guess you have to limit the drawing or else mega engines will be only viable strategy. I like actions as a limiting factor. (Disclaimer: I haven't played Trains)
That's one of the main problems I had when I played the last two games. Since there are no limits on actions or buys, you can get a lot of money quickly, so making big money type card draw engines is too easy.

In the first game, there was a pawn type card for 2, a card that is worth $1 and it lets you play a treasure and then put it back on the deck, and a $5 Adventurer. So you can play a gold train for $3, put it back on your deck (and +$1), then draw it and another treasure. And if you happen to draw a couple of the treasurers in the same hand, you get 4 treasure cards. Not too shabby.

In the second game, there was a smithy (with the implied +1 action) for $7. There was also a Royal Seal equivalent. I had a few turns not too far into the game where I drew my whole deck and had enough money to buy a couple more of those cards, or a couple of province equivalents (cost: $8, 4VP). And there is no wasted money in this game. If I can draw my whole deck and end up with $14, I can buy a gold and a 4VP card, no problem.

Another issue is that they're aren't any attack cards (or at least I haven't seen them). This makes it easier to just build up a super-deck and not have to worry about what everyone else is doing.

There are parts of the game that I like, but if they were going to straight up copy so many aspects of Dominion, I wish they would have copied the 1 buy, 1 action per turn thing as well.
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Ratsia

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Re: Trains
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 02:23:49 am »
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Another issue is that they're aren't any attack cards (or at least I haven't seen them). This makes it easier to just build up a super-deck and not have to worry about what everyone else is doing.
From the perspective of providing a streamlined gaming experience that focuses on the key elements it makes perfect sense for the game to not have attack cards. For Dominion you (kind of) need them for added interaction to complement the implicit pressure of competing of limited piles, but Trains has another form of direct conflict in form of the map (that has spatial constraints and limited space in each hex) and hence the game is more elegant when it does not have further direct attacks.

Of course the above does not imply the constraints imposed by the map would be perfectly implemented in that game, but as a basic mechanism it well covers the need for paying attention to what others are doing, usually much better than what a few attack cards (that might or might not be in the setup) would. The whole point of the map is to force people to act before others can launch their super-decks, which means you have to balance between building your own deck and capturing the key locations on the map. At least in principle the amount of interaction is much greater than it ever is in Dominion, except perhaps for some very specific kingdoms, but in practice the map might need to be a bit tighter and more important for scoring to achieve that.
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ConMan

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Re: Trains
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 05:58:31 pm »
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I like Trains, and I like the Waste mechanic (and particularly like the rule that says you can use your turn to return all Waste cards in hand). Avoiding the board entirely is unlikely to get you a lot of points - the buildings, as pointed out, are not as point-heavy as their Dominion counterparts, and each one you buy also puts another Waste in your deck (it's like all the Victory piles are Embargoed). The one exception is Holiday Timetable, which is basically Monument, but since there's no such thing as a terminal Action it's much easier to spam if there's any reasonable draw available.

The board is the key point of Trains, and the idea is to build a deck that can best make use of what's on the board - grabbing the best locations before others get to them, or mitigating the extra cost it takes to build where someone else is - it's a bit like Power Grid, in that everyone can use the same locations, but the more people there already the more expensive it is. I agree that the map is maybe a little too spread out, particularly for 2 player games, but in 3-4 player games I think the interaction is not only present, but multi-faceted - sure it costs extra to share locations with someone, but if you both wind up sharing the same area you also share the cost (particularly the time cost) and benefit of building stations, so that the two of you can wind up on similar high scores and then you just have to get a couple of extra buildings or something to take the win, while the people who stay away from everyone else have to build up their points on their own.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Trains
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 07:34:59 pm »
+1

I have played Trains several times, and I enjoy it. It's unlike Dominion in that the game is more about timing than assembling particular combos of cards. As other posters have noted, the VP cards give fewer points, and give extra waste, compared to Dominion. The cheap points are to be found on the board--but to take advantage of those, you need to play actions to take advantage of them. You start out with a few of those cards, and you can buy more, but they do give waste when you play them.

So should you wait to play them? Well, you'd like to wait until your deck is well-developed, but you also need to weigh the fact that if you want to build into a location after someone else does, you have extra cost and get extra waste. Some games, you'll wait and other games you'll hurry.

(A lot of reviews make a big deal about the ability you have to spend your entire turn to dump the Waste in your hand. My sense is that this is not typically going to be an important part of the game unless you are playing a slog-type strategy and are fortunate enough to get your Waste to clump up relatively early on.)

For the most part, I appreciate the removal of Actions and Buys as separate concepts. It moves the focus to the board and introduces some interesting design space--there's 2-cost cards that wouldn't be viable in Dominion but are cool in Trains (there's a Treasure-analogue that is worth $1 but $2 if you have a Copper-analogue in play.) The Lab-analogue and double-Lab-analogue (cost 7, draw 3) are powerful and important if there are cards on the board that have good synergy (i.e. usually) and the Tourist Train (Copper that gives 1 VP when you play it) is always a big deal.

If you're a Dominion expert, you'll also be good at Trains, and possibly the biggest reason is that you'll understand the importance of controlling the end of the game. Often there are cheap piles that are in demand and the lack of Buys as a necessity means that you'll often have a lot of control over the end of the game, especially if you're playing an "engine"-type deck as opposed to a "slog" that fills itself up with Waste.

Maybe the biggest reason I enjoy Trains is that I've played enough Dominion that playing with novices is unsatisfying for everyone. They feel outclassed and confused, and I feel bored and unchallenged. Trains is familiar and doesn't break Dominion just for the chance to break it (i.e. there's no second currency called "fighting" or some such crap), but is unfamiliar enough that it's an interesting experience for everyone. Will I end up playing it 1500 times? Well, probably not, but I have little doubt that I'll get my $40 worth out of it.
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flies

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Re: Trains
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 04:56:53 pm »
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many of these comments have convinced me to give the game another shot.  I doubt I'll prefer it to Dominion, but as sitnaltax, playing Dominion with casual players is usually a drag after you've played thousands of games.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Trains
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 08:37:24 pm »
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I played it twice and didn't like it all.
Like many deckbuilders, it lacks the the thing that makes Dominion so fun: The possibility of huge card combos that let you cool stuff with your hand. You just draw your hand and play those cards, maybe drawing a few more cards in the process. But you can't do something like Village-Smithy-Village-Smithy.
Also, I don't really like the board mechanism that let's you reap the fruit of other's buildings. Plus I feel the starting position might be to important.
Furthermore, I feel lots of the cards are too close to cards from Dominion. I mean they have 2 coins for $3, 3 coins for $6, Wishing Well for $3, Lab for $5 (minus nonexistant actions). I mean I don't have anything against games using Dominion's deckbuilding mechanics, but straight up copying cards?

So it's really a moat for $5?

No! It's a Laboratory for $5. Since you have unlimited actions, then it's like every card has +1 action automatically.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Trains
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2013, 03:42:02 pm »
+1

So I just learned Trains at BGG.con. I like it a lot (only played 1 game). I'm almost sure that you can't just ignore the board and "play Dominion" instead. The best vp card is 8 coins for 4 points, and vp cards  come with a confusion. The board gives you anywhere from 2 to 8 points for little to no coins (and a confusion).

Anyway, Dominion skills do help a lot and I proved that in my game. 4 player game, the others were all basically buying stuff that helps trash confusions, and expanding on the board fast. I opened Silver/Silver, and went into Laboratories, Gold, and Cellars. When my opponents all had expanded all over the board, with about 20 points each, I had 0 points. And they weren't getting too bogged down in waste either, they were trashing as they went (but most turns that they trashed were otherwise useless turns).

Anyway, I got 9 out of the 10 Labs, and then went heavy on the board. I thought that I would be able to use my engine to trash a lot of waste and keep my deck going, but that didn't work at all. My deck was too large and I couldn't line up the waste with my trashers. But it didn't matter. I quickly caught up, and then ended the game with about 36 points to the second place score of about 30.

So yeah, go Dominion knowledge. It's cool because I had no clue if it would work in this game or not, but my guess was right. I'm assuming the general right way to play is similar to what I did, but waiting less time before going after the board (because there aren't really "draw your deck" engines).
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joefunk

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Re: Trains
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2013, 10:59:16 pm »
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Depending on the card selection, you can almost exclusively "play dominion" and win. Two of the games I played were like that in a row, which kind of soured me on Trains.

In the first game, I bought a bunch of money cards and a few of the Adventurer equivalents. Even when I wanted to place a few stations and rails down at the end of the game, my Adventurer card was skipping right past my construction cards. I think I had three things on the board and won by 10 or so.

In the second game, I just comboed the Royal Seal equivalent with the card that gives +3 cards and was able to cycle my whole deck until I started to get slowed down at the end. I played a few rails on the victory point hexes and managed an easy victory.

If definitely depends on the card layout though; if there aren't many card drawers or things that help get treasure out, then you will probably have to go a little heavier on the board. I just don't think they playtested it enough, because I doubt that they wanted to create a board game where ignoring the board is the best strategy even 1/10 of the time.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Trains
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 01:01:22 am »
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How much does the +3 cards cost? Such a card would definitely change things... But still, why purchase a vp card when you can just build a railroad on a bonus square for the same or more points (and less waste and money)?
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Ratsia

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Re: Trains
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2013, 02:24:41 am »
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But still, why purchase a vp card when you can just build a railroad on a bonus square for the same or more points (and less waste and money)?
Given those exact two options you would of course lay railroad, but you are not that often making that choice in isolation.

Remember that laying railroad requires a card and that you have to be close enough to the bonus square (or some other good location) to be able to do it. Both of these require additional work that you could have spend increasing your buying power instead. Hence, whenever you have the opportunity to lay railroad on a good location and think that it is so much better than buying a VP card that costs a bit more, you have to remember that if you had not bought those extra track laying cards and spent a few rounds getting close to the bonus square (and collecting waste while doing it) you might have way more money to buy the VP cards.

You should not take the above as an indication that one should never lay track; it's almost always a good idea to pick the low-hanging fruits, the bonus squares are indeed very good, and depending to the set of cards it might be easy to lay a lot of track without needing to worry about waste. Instead, it's just a reminder that being able to collect a lot of points using the map usually means sacrificing on something else and hence you cannot directly compare the cost of buying a VP card and laying track on a good location. If you originally aimed at buying VP cards then you will typically have more money as well when you start buying them.
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brokoli

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Re: Trains
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 10:34:38 am »
+1

I played it and liked it a lot too.
But it bothers me that ALL non-dominion deckbuilding I know have abondoned the +action system, as if it was an unnecessary mechanic that makes the game complicated.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Trains
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 11:31:06 pm »
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How much does the +3 cards cost? Such a card would definitely change things... But still, why purchase a vp card when you can just build a railroad on a bonus square for the same or more points (and less waste and money)?

1. It costs $7. It's an incredibly powerful card.
2. You run out of convenient bonus hexes quickly. Then you reach a point where it's going to take 2, 3, 4 rail-builds to get to those points. But the real power of the Dominion-power deck is that you can do both in quick succession, even in the same turn.
3. I actually wrote a strategy guide and posted it to BGG http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14016460#14016460, if anyone out there is interested.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Trains
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2013, 11:34:58 pm »
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I played it and liked it a lot too.
But it bothers me that ALL non-dominion deckbuilding I know have abondoned the +action system, as if it was an unnecessary mechanic that makes the game complicated.

You might be interested in Puzzle Strike, which gets some somewhat-deserved hate around here, but has a "flavored" action system that is inspired by Dominion's but a bit more elaborate.

With Trains, a lot of the time you end up just buying the best card you can afford until it's gone. From a game design perspective, that made me think... there needs to be some kind of system or resource that limits the number of powerful cards you can play on a turn. That resource, of course... is Actions.
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Re: Trains
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 10:47:52 pm »
+1

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156976/planes

Because apparently Trains wasn't enough of a Dominion rip-off.

Presumably the next game will be "Automobiles"
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Re: Trains
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 03:33:31 am »
+2

Presumably the next game will be "Automobiles"

I'm expecting "Brains": stumble you way across town in search of sustenance before your targets reach the mall.
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Re: Trains
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 09:31:23 am »
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http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/156976/planes

Because apparently Trains wasn't enough of a Dominion rip-off.

Presumably the next game will be "Automobiles"

I was going to make this joke until I actually looked at the link and saw that they were indeed making Planes.  But, Planes should have come first. 
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Kuildeous

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Re: Trains
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 08:57:25 am »
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Necro time!

I picked up this game for $10. I haven’t played it yet, but I have enough experience with Dominion, Ascension, and Thunderstone. In fact, the box setup is very reminiscent of Thunderstone.

Wow, the Dominion-derivative just smacks you right in the face. When you have a good formula, you might as well use it, right?

The addition of the board looks neat. I look forward to playing this. It looks to be Dominion-lite, which is not necessarily a bad thing when interacting with certain groups.

I see there’s a Rising Sun expansion. I know there was talk of having a Planes and Automobiles expansions, but I guess nothing’s come of those.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Trains
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2016, 12:28:33 pm »
+1

You guys are slightly confused. Planes and Automobiles do indeed exist from the same publisher and with the same art and graphic style, but they are their own games, not expansions to Trains. Planes is a mancala-based game with no deck building element at all. Automobiles seems to be pool building, with victory decided through an actual race.

AFAIK, they never planned to make Planes/Automobiles as expansions, but they were using it as a thematic connection to piggy-back on the popularity of Trains.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:31:14 pm by eHalcyon »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Trains
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2016, 01:56:29 pm »
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That’s actually a relief. I would have thought it too cheesy to combine all three into one game.

Kind of clever, really.

I read a review about the Trains expansion. It sounds promising.
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Kirian

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Re: Trains
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2016, 05:16:12 pm »
+1

You guys are slightly confused. Planes and Automobiles do indeed exist from the same publisher and with the same art and graphic style, but they are their own games, not expansions to Trains. Planes is a mancala-based game with no deck building element at all. Automobiles seems to be pool building, with victory decided through an actual race.

AFAIK, they never planned to make Planes/Automobiles as expansions, but they were using it as a thematic connection to piggy-back on the popularity of Trains.

To be fair, I wrote that at a time when, I believe, there was zero information other than "same company is publishing Planes."  Planes was... meh.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Trains
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 01:35:27 pm »
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I finally got to play my $10 copy over the weekend. We only had time for one game. There were three of us, and we weren't conflicting with each other, though I was starting to try to encroach on my neighbor's territory to make use of her stations.

Man, that takes me back to classic Dominion. And that's really what Trains is. We had a new player, and I really wanted to try out Trains, so I opted for that rather than play Dominion with the base set. For a person new to deckbuildling, that's a mistake. Dominion might have an unnecessary theme, but it's easy to follow: You buy Silver and Gold to build up your buying power. The theme is crap in Trains: You buy an Express Train so that you can buy a Viaduct. She was confused about how buying trains didn't really take you anywhere. I can't say I blame her. Those of us with Dominion experience caught onto Trains right away.

The map portion was interesting. I may try to play it again tonight with a different group (all Dominion veterans). I want to figure out the board a little better. When I played over the weekend, the three of us claimed our corners of the map. I got caught up in the fallacy that whenever you can afford to build a rail or station, you should do it. No, I shouldn't have. Building a rail on the board gives you no advantage during the game, and it adds waste (a Curse card of 0 VP) to your deck. Well, maybe one advantage. When someone builds onto a hex that has your token, it costs more for them and adds additional waste. Still not worth it to build very early. So basically, you have to determine when it's safe to go green. Then you start pushing for rail and station cards.

At first your starting hand looks 100% useful. All the cards do stuff. You have seven coppers. You also have two cards that build a rail (and generate waste). Finally, you have one card that builds a station (+ waste). But as I said, you could probably ignore those early on. If you think of them as Estates just clogging your deck, you will know how to play. It's just that these "Estates" help you gain VPs later.

It's a neat game. I mean, it's Dominion. It's fun like Dominion. It just has an additional component. You could ignore the board altogether and buy up the VPs. There are a few downsides to this: The "Province" is only 4 VP for 8 cost (I think the "Duchy" is only 2 VP), you gain Waste as well (giving you two dead cards), and the game doesn't end just because you empty the "Province" pile. So when people say that it's hard to win by ignoring the board, I believe it.

I would still choose Dominion over Trains, especially with all the new cards shaking things up, but I would choose Trains over Ascension.


And I kind of parroted a lot of what was said in here already, but it's been a while since I read this thread. Sorry for repeats.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:36:34 pm by Kuildeous »
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