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Author Topic: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply  (Read 9606 times)

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Wuscheli

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Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« on: October 17, 2013, 05:11:36 pm »
0

Hi,

can a player play Band of Misfits when there are no cheaper action cards to impersonate in the supply?

If yes, what happens?

If no, how are forcings handled, e.g. Golem reveals BoM, Throne Room (whose pile is exhausted) played with only BoM in hand, ...?

I've houseruled that BoM is a blank action card. It counts normally as an action card played and as in play. Reasoning: "Play this as I it were a cheaper card..." is to be executed, cannot do this, so everything on the card fails.

I'm aware that the card text on BoM is not usual instructions. Usual instructions could be prepended with "when you play this", while keeping the effect the same. "When you play this" happens after playing the card, but "play this as if it were a ..." happens at the same time. When the "if" fails, will "play this as if..." be replaced with "play this card normally, but watch everything fail", or with "when you would play this, you can't play this"?
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 05:28:50 pm »
+4

Your house rules are correct. You can play BoM as usual, but it doesn't do anything in that case. It still counts as a played action card though (for Conspirator, Horn of Plenty etc).
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 05:29:30 pm »
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Yes, they can - if they have any Actions remaining, and it's their Action phase, they may play any Action card from their hand they wish.

When you play any action card, you do what you can, and if there's part of it you can't do, you just don't do that bit, and continue trying to do the rest. So for example, you play Jack of all Trades when you have an empty deck and a Watchtower in hand.

"Gain a Silver." OK, I gain a Silver, and I reveal Watchtower choosing to trash the Silver.
"Look at the top card of your deck; you may discard it or put it back". There isn't a top card of my deck, so I don't do that.
"Draw until you have five cards in hand". There aren't any cards for me to draw, so I don't.
"You may trash a card from your hand that is not a Treasure". I trash an Estate.
There isn't any more, so I finished playing the card.

So, you play Band of Misfits and there's no action card costing less. "Play this as if this were any action card in the supply costing less...", you can't do that, so you don't. There isn't any more, so you are finished. You played it, and nothing happened - basically the same result as if you played Sea Hag, Saboteur or Thief in a solitaire game.
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Wuscheli

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 05:34:39 pm »
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Alright, thanks!

So "play this as if it were" does not alter anything before/during the choice attempt to play this, even though the unusual wording implies that. It could be reworded as "Choose an action costing less, this becomes that, etc., until, etc."
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 05:43:44 pm »
+3

Yes, that would be almost the same - except when you Throne Room (or King's Court or Procession) it, you would arguably get to choose a different card each time. This thread will now become that argument.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 05:45:31 pm »
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Yes, that would be almost the same - except when you Throne Room (or King's Court or Procession) it, you would arguably get to choose a different card each time. This thread will now become that argument.

Quick, Wuscheli, lock the thread before it's too late!
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Wuscheli

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 05:59:01 pm »
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The wording "Choose an action costing less, this becomes that, etc., until, etc." is perfectly consistent with remaining the same card for TR/KC. After the TR is finished with the 1st playthrough, it plays the card again, but it is still the chosen card, because the "until" has not been satisfied. There is no "choose an action costing less" encountered on the 2nd playthrough, because it's not a BoM.

I'm still intrigued that if you cannot "play this as if it were", then you can still "play this" :-) But apparently only "as if it were" fails, not "play this". The severe problem here is: If "gain a card costing 4 or less" fails, do I then "gain a card"? I surely hope I don't...
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:00:11 pm by Wuscheli »
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 07:35:14 pm »
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The wording "Choose an action costing less, this becomes that, etc., until, etc." is perfectly consistent with remaining the same card for TR/KC. After the TR is finished with the 1st playthrough, it plays the card again, but it is still the chosen card, because the "until" has not been satisfied. There is no "choose an action costing less" encountered on the 2nd playthrough, because it's not a BoM.

It becomes a problem with Throning BoM as Feast or Mining Village though because if you trash it it does revert to being itself, but you aren't allowed to choose a new card for the second play.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 08:35:39 pm »
+11

This thread will now become that argument.

...until it leaves play.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2013, 12:16:40 am »
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So it'd count as a BoM for Horn of Plenty for these purposes, right?
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Wuscheli

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2013, 03:01:39 am »
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The wording "Choose an action costing less, this becomes that, etc., until, etc." is perfectly consistent with remaining the same card for TR/KC. After the TR is finished with the 1st playthrough, it plays the card again, but it is still the chosen card, because the "until" has not been satisfied. There is no "choose an action costing less" encountered on the 2nd playthrough, because it's not a BoM.

It becomes a problem with Throning BoM as Feast or Mining Village though because if you trash it it does revert to being itself, but you aren't allowed to choose a new card for the second play.

I assume this has been debated several times before. I will simply take for granted that the current wording gets different rulings than my suggested would. But this isn't what interests me most right now.

The question hasn't been addressed so far: The BoM text states how to play a card, not what happens after it's played. (That the infamous TR/KC argument even exists is evicende that something happens at a different time.) This is different from any other action card. Others get played, then do something, BoM does something during getting played and also prevents you from playing it normally. If the "does something during getting played" fails, why can you still play it normally, even though it wasn't allowed before? Merely the rules allowing to play actions taking precedence over action cards' effects overrulings against their own play?

So it'd count as a BoM for Horn of Plenty for these purposes, right?

Yep, that has been confirmed. It'll be named BoM in play and performs like an empty action card.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 03:30:31 am by Wuscheli »
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2013, 06:43:31 pm »
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According to DXV, Throne Room "locks in" on the card it plays - and the real BoM is already a different card by the time Throne Room plays it, so Throne Room locks in on Feast (for example), and plays Feast twice even if the BoM gets trashed and is thus no a Feast after the first play. By the same logic, if BoM doesn't become the imitated card until after it is played (because the choice is part of the process of playing it), Throne Room "locks in" on BoM, and plays BoM twice, even if it is no longer a BoM after the first play.

That's my argument, anyway. I said it was arguable.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2013, 09:46:04 am »
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The question hasn't been addressed so far: The BoM text states how to play a card, not what happens after it's played. (That the infamous TR/KC argument even exists is evicende that something happens at a different time.) This is different from any other action card. Others get played, then do something, BoM does something during getting played and also prevents you from playing it normally. If the "does something during getting played" fails, why can you still play it normally, even though it wasn't allowed before? Merely the rules allowing to play actions taking precedence over action cards' effects overrulings against their own play?

I'll try to explain it, as I see it.

BoM's instructions are best seen as (1) an instruction to choose a card (costing less) before you play the BoM, and then (2) to let the BoM be that card while it's in play.
But even BoM's before-play ability can't be triggered until you actually will play the card. Compare with Trader: "When you would gain a card, you may reveal this..." You have to reveal it before the gain happens, actually before the to-be-gained card even leaves Supply, BUT you're not allowed to reveal Trader unless you were about to gain the card. It's the same with BoM: You have to choose a card before you play BoM, but you're not allowed to do so (or even start following any instructions on BoM) unless you're about to play it. So you've already started the process of playing BoM. So even though you can't choose a card, you will play the BoM. Even letting you get to that first instruction means that you're in the process of playing it. And there is no "if you do" here: Failing the before-play instruction doesn't mean the play itself is cancelled.

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2013, 11:07:52 am »
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I wonder why BoM doesn't simply have the text:

Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.

Without the "leave play" clause.

So only the text of the card would be copied over, not the name or the cost.
What's wrong with that?
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2013, 11:16:52 am »
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I wonder why BoM doesn't simply have the text:

Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.

Without the "leave play" clause.

So only the text of the card would be copied over, not the name or the cost.
What's wrong with that?

I'm not sure why that would mean the name and cost are not copied over.  You still played it as if it were that card, so it should be that card.  The "This is that card" part seems more to be clarifying, but it can't be that card forever, so it has to specify that it returns to Band of Misfits once it leaves play.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:21:51 am by Witherweaver »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2013, 04:15:07 pm »
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It matters for Horn of Plenty, for example.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2013, 04:20:41 pm »
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It matters for Horn of Plenty, for example.

It matters, but it could just as easily have each BoM played on the board be "Band of Misfits" for purposes of counting for Horn of Plenty.

I think it needs to say something to the effect of "this is that card".

If it wasn't played as the card (that is, if you played Band of Misfits and then chose card text to copy), then you couldn't react to Band of Misfits when it copies an attack: I could play Band of Misfits, emulate Young Witch, and not have played an attack.  On the other hand, if you play BoM as some card, then it really has to be that card.  But it has to stop being that card sometime.  Leaving play seems like the best time.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2013, 04:41:54 pm »
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a non-equivalent alternative implementation:

The Misfits $5

Pick an action in the supply costing less than this.  Play that card.  Return it to the supply when it leaves play. [Edit: if that card is trashed, trash this card as well.]

(Dress in black and sing songs referencing crappy scifi movies from the 60s.)


I'm not sure if that's more confusing or less.  It's definitely not the same in lots of ways.  I think the main thing is that the game shouldn't end on piles due to these Misfitted cards.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:57:21 pm by flies »
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2013, 04:46:02 pm »
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a non-equivalent alternative implementation:

The Misfits $5

Pick an action in the supply costing less than this.  Play that card.  Return it to the supply when it leaves play. 

(Dress in black and sing songs referencing crappy scifi movies from the 60s.)


I'm not sure if that's more confusing or less.  It's definitely not the same in lots of ways.  I think the main thing is that the game shouldn't end on piles due to these Misfitted cards.
I pick Death Cart.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 04:57:54 pm »
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a non-equivalent alternative implementation:

The Misfits $5

Pick an action in the supply costing less than this.  Play that card.  Return it to the supply when it leaves play. 

(Dress in black and sing songs referencing crappy scifi movies from the 60s.)


I'm not sure if that's more confusing or less.  It's definitely not the same in lots of ways.  I think the main thing is that the game shouldn't end on piles due to these Misfitted cards.
I pick Death Cart.

right.  amended.
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Davio

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 03:40:26 am »
+1

It matters for Horn of Plenty, for example.

It matters, but it could just as easily have each BoM played on the board be "Band of Misfits" for purposes of counting for Horn of Plenty.

I think it needs to say something to the effect of "this is that card".

If it wasn't played as the card (that is, if you played Band of Misfits and then chose card text to copy), then you couldn't react to Band of Misfits when it copies an attack: I could play Band of Misfits, emulate Young Witch, and not have played an attack.  On the other hand, if you play BoM as some card, then it really has to be that card.  But it has to stop being that card sometime.  Leaving play seems like the best time.
Ok, let's continue on this thought track, what if the card says:

This card plays exactly as if you're playing a copy of the chosen card.

So if you pick Young Witch, BoM plays as YW and players could react to it as well as they could react to YW itself. It's just the "leave play" bit I'm struggling with, so that's what I'm trying to avoid.

If you pick Feast, well, this plays as a Feast, trashes the same as Feast. but all the way through it's still a BoM, named BoM and costing $5.

Another option could be:
Pick an Action card costing less than Band of Misfits from the supply and play it immediately.
During clean-up, return that card to the supply


You could also make it return the card immediately after it's played, but that's more confusing I think.

Is there a lose-track thing going on here? Well, lose-track is when one card tries to move another card from a place where it's no longer at. So could it return a trashed Feast? Perhaps not, but I don't see a problem with that. It would work the same way as it does now.

How about Procession? Well, you would play this BoM twice, pick two cards from the supply and play them, trash BoM, gain a card costing $6 and at the end of your turn you'd return the ones gained from the supply, no problem there.

So what am I missing in my oversimplification?
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 08:24:00 am »
0

It matters for Horn of Plenty, for example.

It matters, but it could just as easily have each BoM played on the board be "Band of Misfits" for purposes of counting for Horn of Plenty.

I think it needs to say something to the effect of "this is that card".

If it wasn't played as the card (that is, if you played Band of Misfits and then chose card text to copy), then you couldn't react to Band of Misfits when it copies an attack: I could play Band of Misfits, emulate Young Witch, and not have played an attack.  On the other hand, if you play BoM as some card, then it really has to be that card.  But it has to stop being that card sometime.  Leaving play seems like the best time.
Ok, let's continue on this thought track, what if the card says:

This card plays exactly as if you're playing a copy of the chosen card.

So if you pick Young Witch, BoM plays as YW and players could react to it as well as they could react to YW itself. It's just the "leave play" bit I'm struggling with, so that's what I'm trying to avoid.

If you pick Feast, well, this plays as a Feast, trashes the same as Feast. but all the way through it's still a BoM, named BoM and costing $5.

Another option could be:
Pick an Action card costing less than Band of Misfits from the supply and play it immediately.
During clean-up, return that card to the supply


You could also make it return the card immediately after it's played, but that's more confusing I think.

Is there a lose-track thing going on here? Well, lose-track is when one card tries to move another card from a place where it's no longer at. So could it return a trashed Feast? Perhaps not, but I don't see a problem with that. It would work the same way as it does now.

How about Procession? Well, you would play this BoM twice, pick two cards from the supply and play them, trash BoM, gain a card costing $6 and at the end of your turn you'd return the ones gained from the supply, no problem there.

So what am I missing in my oversimplification?
I love the idea - maybe it would be simpler if, instead of during clean-up, it would be "When that card leaves play, return it to the supply".

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 08:49:48 am »
0

How do we prevent Scheme tricks though?

Imagine the following scenario:
1. Play Scheme, play BoM (pick Young Witch)
2. Clean-up, Scheme triggers: Put YW on top of deck
3. BoM has lost track (hurrah, you've gained, played and topdecked a YW in the same turn!)

Maybe amend it like this:
Pick an Action card costing less than Band of Misfits from the supply and play it immediately.
When that card would leave play, return it to the supply


We're using Trader's "would" option here to prioritize it above everything else and prevent losing track. Scheme doesn't lose track here as it simply looks at cards in play; this is no longer in play.

Okay, how about durations like Caravan? They still work, they just (would) leave play a turn later.

It's important to use "pick" instead of "gain" for BoM to prevent a hoist of other unwanted reactions.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 10:29:34 am »
0

How do we prevent Scheme tricks though?

Imagine the following scenario:
1. Play Scheme, play BoM (pick Young Witch)
2. Clean-up, Scheme triggers: Put YW on top of deck
3. BoM has lost track (hurrah, you've gained, played and topdecked a YW in the same turn!)

Maybe amend it like this:
Pick an Action card costing less than Band of Misfits from the supply and play it immediately.
When that card would leave play, return it to the supply


We're using Trader's "would" option here to prioritize it above everything else and prevent losing track. Scheme doesn't lose track here as it simply looks at cards in play; this is no longer in play.

Okay, how about durations like Caravan? They still work, they just (would) leave play a turn later.

It's important to use "pick" instead of "gain" for BoM to prevent a hoist of other unwanted reactions.

As mentioned previously, you may want to avoid using BoM as trashable cards.  BoM and Deathcart means a $5 terminal action for $5.  Only a problem on a few boards so maybe it wouldn't cause too much havoc, but it's probably worth considering.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 10:36:51 am »
0

Also, interesting case.  There is one Caravan left and two piles empty.  You play Band of Misfits as Caravan.  Turn ends, and so does the game, even though the Caravan was never gained.

Not a problem persay, but interesting behavior.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2013, 10:49:54 am »
+1

I just have to point out that i suggested exactly what Davio did 3 posts previously.   >:(
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 11:03:52 am »
0

I just have to point out that i suggested exactly what Davio did 3 posts previously.   >:(
Sorry man, I totally missed that, didn't mean to steal your thunder.

I just always try to fit Dominion cards into little computer programs that actually work and not require all sorts of if-then-elses.
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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2013, 11:17:38 am »
0

dude, where's my thunder?

I agree with you that having all of these intricate non-obvious card interactions is annoying that essentially amount to if-then-else is the game design equivalent of spaghetti code. 

edit: incidentally, I just found a serious bug in some of my code that resulted from spaghetti-like design problems.
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Davio

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Re: Band of Misfits, no cheaper cards in supply
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2013, 11:24:30 am »
0

dude, where's my thunder?

I agree with you that having all of these intricate non-obvious card interactions is annoying that essentially amount to if-then-else is the game design equivalent of spaghetti code. 

edit: incidentally, I just found a serious bug in some of my code that resulted from spaghetti-like design problems.
That happens to me on a daily basis.

What I've learned is that every time I want to exclaim: Which idiot wrote this code?
It's usually me a couple of years back. :)
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