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XerxesPraelor

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Fan Expansion Preview
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:57:28 pm »
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Okay, since I am still going to submit quite a few of my cards to the treasure chest expansion, I can't post my entire fan expansion. (it's a small one, coming in at 25 cards) But I still want to have some feedback on my cards. So I'll follow what showdown is doing and post three of my cards at a time.

Stamp Collector – Action - $2
+1 Card
Reveal your hand. +1 action per differently named action you revealed.

I was trying to find something simple (as DXV said, the complexity of expansions goes up and up) and this was the best thing I could come up with. I was also running short of villages in the set, so it worked really well.

Almanac – Reaction - $3
When you reshuffle your deck, you may reveal this from the discard pile and return it to the almanac pile. If you do, +2 VP and gain a card costing up to $3, putting it on the bottom of your deck.
----
When you gain this card, put it at the bottom of your deck.

I've really wanted to create a pure reaction for a while, and this is my third shot. Partially I made it as a cool combo with scavenger/chancellor and cycling in general, but I think it should work pretty well. Putting the gained card at the bottom of the deck means that you can't just spam almanacs with itself, because they'll miss the reshuffle and be a wasted card for two whole shuffles before you can remove it.

Enlightenment – Action/Attack - $4
+$1
Each other player with 4 or more cards reveals his hand and places a card costing no less than any card in his hand on the bottom of his deck.

Okay, I needed a few attack cards in the expansion, and have had the idea of a cost-based discard attack in the back of my head for quite some time, and this is how I got it to work.

Any opinions or suggestions?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 01:58:33 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 02:01:27 pm »
+2

Just a note, 25 cards isn't a small expansion... that's a normal expansion.

Off the top of my head, I feel like Stamp Collector should be $3. There's enough times where it will be better than regular Village.

Almanac sounds a little weak. It's kind of like Monument, except you don't need an action to play it and you don't get the +$2 either. But it' still a dead card in your hand; and it takes 2 Shuffles to get 2 VP, just like Monument. But then you have to buy it again. The other issue is that it's swingy... even on the second shuffle, it may be in your hand when you shuffle; then you can't use it and you're stuck with it.

Perhaps it should be Victory-Reaction (I know you want pure reaction) that's worth 2VP. At least then it does something even if you get unlucky.


Enlightenment wording is confusing. Took me multiple readings to realize that they need to place the most expensive card on the bottom. I get why you can't just say "most expensive", due to potions (and ties), so I don't know what a good wording is. Anyway, sounds maybe too strong. Until late-game, this will function almost as well as Pillage. The most expensive card is often the one Pillage would have discarded. And Pillage is a $5 one-shot.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:11:36 pm by GendoIkari »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 07:41:36 pm »
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Stamp Collector -- I think (but am not so sure) that Stamp Collector should cost $3.  Compared to Village, there is a chance of whiffing when you only have one action in hand, but you make up for it with the possibility of giving more than +2 Actions.  It's notable that this is equivalent to a cantrip+ because you will always get at least +1 action if you actually have an action in hand to play.  OK, it's not quite a cantrip in certain edge cases (e.g. TR, Golem) but it's pretty much so.  I think the possibility of whiffing is balanced by the potential for extra actions, so I think the cost should match Village at $3. 

As for the function itself, I like it just fine.  Simple, elegant, clear purpose in design.  I suppose that there might be some potential abuse cases with Scrying Pool (SP deck chock full of powerful terminals and just a Stamp Collector or two to provide all the +action you need).  Overall though, it looks good.

I see that Gendo says the same in much fewer words. :P


Almanac -- I think there may be some timing issues and redundancy in this card.  You say you have the gain-to-bottom so that "you can't just spam almanacs with itself".  I take this to mean that you don't want it to be easy to use  Almanac to gain another Almanac, rinse and repeat.  In this case, there is redundancy in that you have an on-gain bottom-deck as well as bottom-deck on the reaction's gaining ability itself.  One should suffice.  You can keep it as an on-gain to nerf gaining Almanacs in other ways while allowing the reaction to gain (for example) Silver without having to bottom-deck it.  Or you could leave the bottom-decking on the reaction so that anything gained via reaction is bottom decked (which is not necessarily a nerf) while making Enlightenment itself a bit faster to activate.

As for the timing issue, there's a question about when the reaction actually triggers.  "When you reshuffle your deck" -- does that means when you are actually shuffling it, or when you are about to shuffle?  The former doesn't make sense because, if you are already shuffling, there is no longer a discard pile from which you can reveal Almanac.  But if the latter, the timing is strange.  Consider:

I am about to shuffle.  I reveal an Almanac.  I gain 2VP and I gain some card X.  I now put X on the bottom of my deck.  Since I am about to shuffle, my deck is empty, so the newly gained card is the ONLY card in my deck.  Now I continue my reshuffle... wait, do I shuffle that single card in my deck with the rest?

The problem is more obvious if you have multiple Almanacs.  If you try to think it through, it doesn't seem like it is possible to resolve more than one Almanac on a turn.

I believe I understand the intent (shuffle first, then put the gained card on the bottom) but it isn't correctly and unambiguously conveyed as currently worded.  You could probably just be explicit about the timing:

"When you would reshuffle your deck... If you do, shuffle your deck, +2VP and..."

Granted, this could sound a bit awkward and redundant to players who don't pay attention to these little timing quirks.  It also cements that you can only trigger one Almanac per reshuffle.

Oh, there is one other potential issue too -- IIRC, you are prohibited from looking through the discard and thus you can never actually reveal an Almanac from it.  I think this is easily remedied by taking a cue from Counting House and maybe Duchess -- "[In games using this,] when you reshuffle your deck, you may look through your cards and reveal this from the discard pile..."

As for the effect itself... it actually seems a bit bland to me.  Power wise, I don't know.  If I am thinking about this correctly, Gendo is wrong that it can whiff on the second reshuffle (and likewise, I think you're wrong that it's dead for two shuffles).  When you gain it, it goes on the bottom of your deck.  In the best case scenario, you draw it as the fifth card in your hand just before the reshuffle and you don't even have the option to trigger the reshuffle during your turn.  You discard it, then you reshuffle and you get to trigger the reaction on that first reshuffle.

The more common case would be that Almanac misses the reshuffle the first time through, but then you discard it and it's guaranteed to be in the discard pile when you reshuffle the second time.  Either way, it's only a dead card in your hand once.  Right?  I'm not missing something here?  Also, you don't have to buy it again because you can just gain another Almanac with it.

Anyway, it just doesn't seem very interesting to me.  The mechanics feel clunky and overly complicated for no great reason.  As Gendo notes, it kind of just fills the same niche that Monument does, except in a rather roundabout way.


Enlightenment -- As Gendo says, this is almost as brutal as Pillage, which is a one-shot $5 card.  It hurts even more if you can play it twice in a turn, because you have it at "4 or more cards".  Even when it starts hitting Provinces instead of key action cards or treasures, it still hurts because the dead card will be clogging you up again this shuffle.  Yes, it's at the bottom of the deck so it will probably miss the next reshuffle, but that just means that you see the dead card again earlier than you otherwise might have.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 08:03:11 pm »
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Good points about almanac timing. I hadn't thought that carefully through it. And yeah, I was incorrectly thinking that you might draw it as you were draing for multiple cards right before a reshuffle, but if course it can't get into your deck until it's first in your discard at some point (except when you first gain it to your deck).
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ConMan

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 09:13:50 pm »
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Perhaps the wording for Almanac could be "When you would shuffle your discard into your draw pile, first you may reveal this from your discard. If you do, etc." Also, yes it needs to do something else besides what it already does, and I think this may be the only card I can think of (besides an edge case with Stash) that comboes with Pearl Diver.
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AJD

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 09:23:12 pm »
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Stamp Collector -- I think (but am not so sure) that Stamp Collector should cost $3.  Compared to Village, there is a chance of whiffing when you only have one action in hand, but you make up for it with the possibility of giving more than +2 Actions.  It's notable that this is equivalent to a cantrip+ because you will always get at least +1 action if you actually have an action in hand to play.  OK, it's not quite a cantrip in certain edge cases (e.g. TR, Golem) but it's pretty much so.  I think the possibility of whiffing is balanced by the potential for extra actions, so I think the cost should match Village at $3.

You could nerf it a bit, perhaps to the $2 level, by making it possible to totally whiff—by giving +1 card after it gives you however many +Actions it's going to give you. Not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Showdown35

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 12:14:07 am »
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As a flavor guy, I guess I can offer a different perspective for commenting (I find it difficult to get a comment on mechanics in because this forum has so many quick responders with a vast knowledge and much more experience than I).

I think I understand the Stamp Collector flavor; you get rewarded for showing a "collection" of unique actions (stamps) which encourages collecting a copy of each action. As for mechanics (I'll make an attempt), if you want to keep it at $2, youcould try adding "that is not a copy of an action in play", to further limit effectiveness AND add to the "lots unique actions are good" feel of the card.

Almanac is an interesting concept. I'm figuring it represents being able to predict weather and prepare for farming conditions and whatnot. Having an Almanac at hand lets you better manage your land and so, in game terms, nets you some vp. The fact that its a straight reaction plays into that flavor as well as you would use an almanac to plan your reactions to tough conditions. No comment for mechanics as I have nothing to add to the previous.

Enlightenment baffles me flavorwise. Unless you mean it as "to make something less heavy"! Then I suppose taking the most expensive (essentially) card out of people's hands fits. But I'm guessing that's not what you meant when choosing Enlightenment as the name.  I tend to stay away from non-noun card names as there are very few cards published that are not people, places, or things. Enlightenment is more of a concept than a tangible/physical thing, and is much tougher to represent on a card (how do you buy Enlightenment? and how does it attack someone?).  What about something like Enlightened One, or Enlightened Cleric? If you make it a person, it's easier to fathom how it can be bought/acquired and sent over to enemy territory to unburden or clear the minds of of those that oppose you.  Was clearing minds of their most heinous and elaborate thoughts and intentions what you were thinking of with Enlightenment?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 12:15:08 am by Showdown35 »
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petrie911

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 01:35:30 am »
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It seems to me that putting a card on the bottom of the deck is pretty similar to putting it in the discard pile. I guess it's a little better for the card since it can't end up missing the next reshuffle.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 02:54:52 am »
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Okay, so after suggestions:

Stamp Collector – Action - $2
+1 Card
Reveal your hand. +1 action per differently named action you revealed that is not a copy of an action in play.

New form of almanac:
Almanac - Victory/Reaction - $3
Worth 1 VP
In games using this, when you re-shuffle your deck, you may look through your discard pile and reveal this card. If you do, gain 3 coin tokens.

Censor – Action/Attack - $5
+$1
Each other player with 5 or more cards reveals his hand and places a card costing no less than any card in his hand on the bottom of his deck.

Almanac has been changed to coin tokens rather than VP to differentiate it from monument. Comments on it?

And since I think people like stamp collector enough:

Revolution – Action/Attack - $5
+$2
Name a card in the supply. Each other player gains a copy of it. You gain a card costing up to $2 more that is not a victory card.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 04:00:58 am by XerxesPraelor »
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AJD

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 03:27:58 am »
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Revolution – Action/Attack - $5
+2 Actions
Name a card in the supply. Each other player gains a copy of it. You gain a card costing up to $2 more.

I like this a lot as an innovative, highly board-dependent junking attack. However, two caveats:

1. You probably want "costing up to $2 more that is not a Victory card"... unless you want people to be able to use it on the last shuffle to gain Provinces while handing out Golds that their opponents will never get to use.

2. I'm really leery about making this a non-terminal Attack—let alone a village. It's not good on all boards, but on boards where it is good it's good enough that if it's non-terminal you'll just buy as many of them as you can and attack with them all the time without worrying about terminal clash. That's frustrating enough when the Attack is Minion, but when the Attack is one that stacks if you play it twice on the same turn it's probably even worse. Maybe it should be terminal and cost $4?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 04:00:35 am »
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Right before you posted it I changed it to give out +$2. But yes, I think I'll make the change in #1.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 10:16:36 am »
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Revolution is pretty awesome. It can either be played as a junking attack; or as a gainer that can gain good cards at the cost of giving your opponents not-as-good cards. Do I want to give my opponents a Curse and take a Hamlet? Probably. But I might also want to give them a Nomad Camp and take a Goons. It is indeed very board-dependent. Very strong if there's $2s you don't mind having multiple of. Really good if both Scout and Goons are on the board. But I like it a lot.
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AJD

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 10:48:32 am »
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Revolution is pretty awesome. It can either be played as a junking attack; or as a gainer that can gain good cards at the cost of giving your opponents not-as-good cards. Do I want to give my opponents a Curse and take a Hamlet? Probably. But I might also want to give them a Nomad Camp and take a Goons. It is indeed very board-dependent. Very strong if there's $2s you don't mind having multiple of. Really good if both Scout and Goons are on the board. But I like it a lot.

Hm, it's also an interesting case of an Attack that's not countered very effectively by Lighthouse. I play Revolution and give you a Caravan. Oh, you have a Lighthouse in play? Oh, I guess you don't gain the Caravan after all, but I'll take a Gold.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 02:29:52 pm »
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Here's a similar card I had:

Convoy, Action/Attack, $5
Gain a card costing up to $7. Each other player gains a card costing at most $2 less.

I think if you're allowed to straight-up gain King's Courts (or Province, with Highway in play), the opponents should at least choose what $5 they get (instead of Duchy, or, Duchy).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 02:31:59 pm by Warfreak2 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 02:49:38 pm »
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Here's a similar card I had:

Convoy, Action/Attack, $5
Gain a card costing up to $7. Each other player gains a card costing at most $2 less.

I think if you're allowed to straight-up gain King's Courts (or Province, with Highway in play), the opponents should at least choose what $5 they get (instead of Duchy, or, Duchy).

The problem with that is that when it's used as an attack, it's basically a Copper-junker.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 07:25:48 pm »
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Almanac still has the timing issue, and since it now doesn't have a bottom-deck clause, it has an extra issue in that it will grant infinite coin tokens.  You can reveal reactions as many times as you want, after all. :P
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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 01:01:01 am »
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Almanac still has the timing issue, and since it now doesn't have a bottom-deck clause, it has an extra issue in that it will grant infinite coin tokens.  You can reveal reactions as many times as you want, after all. :P

Wait, isn't Almanac's timing similar to Tunnel's? And you can't reveal Tunnel multiple times during one discard of it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 05:00:07 am »
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Almanac still has the timing issue, and since it now doesn't have a bottom-deck clause, it has an extra issue in that it will grant infinite coin tokens.  You can reveal reactions as many times as you want, after all. :P

Wait, isn't Almanac's timing similar to Tunnel's? And you can't reveal Tunnel multiple times during one discard of it.

After you discard it though, it's gone.  This card isn't gone, it's still in the place from which you are allowed to reveal it.
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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 05:17:21 am »
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Almanac still has the timing issue, and since it now doesn't have a bottom-deck clause, it has an extra issue in that it will grant infinite coin tokens.  You can reveal reactions as many times as you want, after all. :P

Wait, isn't Almanac's timing similar to Tunnel's? And you can't reveal Tunnel multiple times during one discard of it.

After you discard it though, it's gone.  This card isn't gone, it's still in the place from which you are allowed to reveal it.
It is gone after you reshuffle.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 05:32:15 am »
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Not to let this get sidetracked, I have a new card here.

Economist – Action/Reaction - $3
+$1
+1 Buy
When another player plays an action card, you may reveal your hand and discard this card. If you revealed the same card they played, discard it and +5 cards.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 07:16:54 am by XerxesPraelor »
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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 07:03:41 am »
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Surely you mean - plays an action card ?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 07:16:35 am »
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Yeah, just a typo.
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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 08:13:34 am »
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Not to let this get sidetracked, I have a new card here.

Economist – Action/Reaction - $3
+$1
+1 Buy
When another player plays an action card, you may reveal your hand and discard this card. If you revealed the same card they played, discard it and +5 cards.
I think it would be more interesting if you didn't discard Economist on reaction and instead just drew +4 cards, unless you have already concluded that it would be too weak that way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 09:05:04 am »
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Almanac still has the timing issue, and since it now doesn't have a bottom-deck clause, it has an extra issue in that it will grant infinite coin tokens.  You can reveal reactions as many times as you want, after all. :P

Wait, isn't Almanac's timing similar to Tunnel's? And you can't reveal Tunnel multiple times during one discard of it.

After you discard it though, it's gone.  This card isn't gone, it's still in the place from which you are allowed to reveal it.
It is gone after you reshuffle.

Yeah. In fact, I think Tunnel might be evidence that Almanac's wording is ok. Tunnel tells you to reveal it "when you discard it". A completely literal meaning says that you get to dig through your discard pile to find it, since it might not even be on top. Basically Tunnel would seem to break lose-track. But it's been commonly interpreted for logic and practicality as revealing "as you discard." Almanac seems almost identical. The wording says "when you shuffle", but in practice that would be "as you're beginning the shuffling process." Either way, didn't Donald say that Tunnel was essentially an exception to the "may reveal multiple times" rule? I would think Almanac falls in that same exception.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Expansion Preview
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 09:12:50 am »
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Not to let this get sidetracked, I have a new card here.

Economist – Action/Reaction - $3
+$1
+1 Buy
When another player plays an action card, you may reveal your hand and discard this card. If you revealed the same card they played, discard it and +5 cards.

Reacting to "when another player plays an action card" isn't a good idea. It means that in games using this, players must play very slowly, waiting after each play of each card to see if any opponent is going to reveal an Economist. All official reaction cards that react on opponent's turns only react to things where normally the current player would have to wait for opponents to do something anyway. I believe the only exception is Fool's Gold; and buying a Province isn't a frequent event.
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Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
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