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Author Topic: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (Game over, Ice Mafia win!)  (Read 137583 times)

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liopoil

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #500 on: November 07, 2013, 09:12:02 pm »

I'm out for tonight, probably won't be back until tomorrow afternoon.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #501 on: November 07, 2013, 09:44:56 pm »

Also, there's this:

Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
Why are you talking about "do not kill"?  Informing the other scum team not to kill him?

Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.

When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it.  Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip.  I don't think so, but it almost looks like it.  The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.

Yeah, this.  I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on.  I'm glad you re-mentioned it.

I'm already voting faust, though.

Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?

In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
Sadly, this is a great point.  Or it's yuma defending his scumbuddy. Hm.

So which do you think it is?  Or will you lurk this away as well?

Here is every single word that Archetype has typed (some have quotes attached to them that I did not include).  A total of 8 posts.  Everything can easily fit on a page.  Really one opinion (Doctor D2 claim-and he even softened that stance with his 4th post).  Sure he chose B---because it had the greatest possibility.  Do you have any other ideas?  maybe expand on what you have said a little?

I agree with you. I think the "It's for the other team" is a really bad cover up.
Sorry everyone, here. Been fairly busy, but I'll reread and post my thoughts.
Alright. I pick B: Town/Scum. Mostly because it's the most likely thing for there to be. I would not mind lynching from one of these two, but I prefer faust since he's acting fairly similar to how he did in Modern Community
So Voltaire, are you going to lead us? Townpoints to Gveoniz and Voltgloss for digging info and sharing it with us.

Vote:NHS until further notice.
Yeah. That is a good point. However, if I was scum I'd certainly kill the claimed Doc. Maybe it's just that I've never been scum in a multiball game. But I wouldn't be all too mad if the Doc claims, but I'd rather them claim tommorow.
An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.
If Doctor claims today, they have very little information to go off of to lead Town. Tommorow they will have the D1 lynch, and the NK(s) from N1. Plus, they run the risk of being nightkilled N1 if they claim right now.
Doctor should not claim until D2. IC is useless D1.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #502 on: November 07, 2013, 09:47:07 pm »

Sorry, Archetype.  I was wrong with my last post.  I didn't include the end of one of your quotes.  So you have typed out a couple more words than I gave you credit for

Vote: faust since NHS will most likely be replaced.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #503 on: November 07, 2013, 09:51:33 pm »

So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy.

Why do you say "there should be no reason to find [faust] scummy"?

Because I don't see how what you are accusing faust of doing is scummy. He voted for someone for saying something that he perceived to be scummy. It was a very unusual statement by sudgy and I have no problem with faust voting him for it. None. Especially at the stage of the game we were then in.

I guess the counter argument could be made that I am voting you for voting someone for saying something that you perceived to be scummy. But at this point the stage of the game has changed. We have moved from basic reactions and votes to a layered game. And this is where I think the votes start to actually start to mean so much more... Like I said I think someone directly involved in the early events was mafia. I don't think it is either of the two original players (I think both are likely town) and I have more of a town read on ash, so I am suspectful of you.

So...everyone's favorite activity: calling scum teams!

If faust flips scum, I think it's likely he has a veteran partner.  I think mathematically that makes more sense than him being with Gvox/2.7/NDS.

Yuma has staunchly defended faust, even up to now (don't know if yuma is caught up yet, though) when a fair number of folks have made different points against him.  Yuma is in agreement with me in that losing your only scumpartner from a 2-man team on D1 is the worst possible outcome (Robz agrees, too), and I can see full-on buddying/protecting as a tactic from scum!yuma here.  So, noted.

Robz also took faust's side when the faust/sudgy debacle started, but flipped when the "scumslip" issue took centerstage.  As noted above, Robz agrees that losing your partner is bad news bears on D1, but he's also one to cut his losses earlier than expected.  If Robz is faust's partner, I would expect a bus and not a protect.  So, noted.

Double note: I have a nullish scum read on yuma, which is to say nowhere near faust or eevee.  I have a nullish town read on Robz, which is to say nowhere near Voltaire or me.

Is it time for a popsquiz?

Want to lynch: Faust
Would be happy to lynch :Eevee, liopoil, Archetype
Would lynch without tears: NHS, 2.7, Gveo
Would lynch with tears: Voltgloss
Would rather not lynch, but if it was deadline, would make it happen: sudgy, yuma
Won't lynch: ashersky, Voltaire, Robz888
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Archetype

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #504 on: November 07, 2013, 10:23:16 pm »

@2.7: I think it's more likely that yuma is scum, actually. In a two man scumteam I'd fight hard for my partner if he scumslipped.

Very concerned by 2.7's trying to get me lynched. Not neccerssarily because it's me he's trying to start a wagon on (but that does play a big part) but more of him being a newbie and doing something like this. What he said awhile ago about "Voting alongside the Doctor" certainly rubbed me the wrong way.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #505 on: November 07, 2013, 11:15:08 pm »

One of the toys cried out (he hadn't been talking too much) "I can't take it anymore!" He started pounding on the chest walls, on the floor. "Get me out of here! Please!!!!"

NHSeederholm is going to be replaced, so all votes on him have been removed.


Vote Count 1.5:

faust (5): sudgy, ashersky, Voltgloss, Robz888, Archetype
sudgy (1): faust,
Archetype (2): Voltaire, 2.71828.....
Gveoniz (1): yuma

Not Voting (2): liopoil, NHSeederholm (being replaced)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #506 on: November 07, 2013, 11:30:18 pm »

Also, there's this:

Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
Why are you talking about "do not kill"?  Informing the other scum team not to kill him?

Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.

When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it.  Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip.  I don't think so, but it almost looks like it.  The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.

Yeah, this.  I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on.  I'm glad you re-mentioned it.

I'm already voting faust, though.

Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?

In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.

Ouch, don't like this at all. I mean if faust had said it was a language mistake, that would be one thing. But I've generally thought him grammar is perfect, and would not have chalked it up to language myself. If he had proposed this explanation I might have said okay. This actually does rub me as scum defending scum buddy. Well I know that's getting ahead of myself x a billion. But I don't think this was a grammar mistake, and don't like yuma covering for faust in this way prior to faust explaining himself.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #507 on: November 07, 2013, 11:33:23 pm »

faust:

- was on fence regarding doctor claim

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
A bit odd considering he did not express a strong opinion.

I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...

That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!

Vote: sudgy
So I said I'd make up my mind about this in my post about sudgy. There I explained why I disagree with this vote. I think that this does lean slightly scummy because it's an easy vote to hide behind. Also it's a good example of voting over something anti-town, not something scummy.

Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
Here's the thing everyone is getting all excited about it seems. Most likely yet another "scumslip" I think. And by that I mean not-a-scumslip. I see Yuma pointed out it could be just a grammatical mistake from english not being his first language. That's possible, but I think it could also just be emphasizing that voltaire is one of the good guys, so we should not kill him and stuff. lynching is killing, after all. So null, <i>maybe</i> scummy.

No, that's stupid. "Do not lynch, do not kill." This clearly says, "do not lynch this player because he is a town PR, do not kill (i.e. shoot at night) this player because it's dangerous." If like there was a Vig in this setup, we would all obviously be agreeing that it's faust and this was just a note he should have kept to himself. It's maybe a mistake but I don't see how it would be. and I don't buy "mistranslation," especially coming from someone other than faust, who hasn't explained it at all adequately.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #508 on: November 08, 2013, 12:02:59 am »

ash, I agree with most of your "popsquiz" post, but there's one thing I think I'm just not understanding:

Robz also took faust's side when the faust/sudgy debacle started, but flipped when the "scumslip" issue took centerstage.  As noted above, Robz agrees that losing your partner is bad news bears on D1, but he's also one to cut his losses earlier than expected.  If Robz is faust's partner, I would expect a bus and not a protect.  So, noted.

I agree with the above.  But then:

Won't lynch: ashersky, Voltaire, Robz888

Robz started with defending faust, but then switched to voting him when the case on faust intensified.  I think that fits the scumnarrative you've described for a Robz-faust pairing - first protecting, then a switch to bussing.  So I'm not following why you have Robz in the "won't lynch" category.  Am I missing something?
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #509 on: November 08, 2013, 12:06:44 am »

Might as well do a popsquiz as well.

Want to lynch: faust
Would be fine lynching: yuma, archetype
Null/Could maybe lynch: everybody not on other lists
Won't lynch: me, Voltaire, all newbies (this could change with NHS replacing)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #510 on: November 08, 2013, 12:07:18 am »

Additional thought for the yuma/faust scumpairing:  Not only has yuma defended faust - and in an "explaining things for him" way that I find scummy (I think town!yuma would want faust to explain things himself) - but yuma has also made a standard scum defensive move:  trying to get another wagon going.  By which I mean the vote on Gveoniz, someone that hasn't really been considered yet.  That could very easily be scum!yuma hoping to distract us.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #511 on: November 08, 2013, 12:08:10 am »

I'm going off to read sudgy in LOTR 1 now.  If I post here again without giving my thoughts on that, somebody yell at me to get back to my homework.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #512 on: November 08, 2013, 12:22:56 am »

ash, I agree with most of your "popsquiz" post, but there's one thing I think I'm just not understanding:

Robz also took faust's side when the faust/sudgy debacle started, but flipped when the "scumslip" issue took centerstage.  As noted above, Robz agrees that losing your partner is bad news bears on D1, but he's also one to cut his losses earlier than expected.  If Robz is faust's partner, I would expect a bus and not a protect.  So, noted.

I agree with the above.  But then:

Won't lynch: ashersky, Voltaire, Robz888

Robz started with defending faust, but then switched to voting him when the case on faust intensified.  I think that fits the scumnarrative you've described for a Robz-faust pairing - first protecting, then a switch to bussing.  So I'm not following why you have Robz in the "won't lynch" category.  Am I missing something?

Robz's position in the popsquiz is based on my overall read of him, which as I mentioned was nullish town.  Nullish town for Robz is enough for a "leave him until D2" pass.

Yuma could easily be in that category, except for the overall nullish scum read, plus all the faust interaction.  But I can't hold the faust interaction against him until faust flips.

But, for both, the "if they are town, scum will NK them for us" thing stands to reason -- we have two scum teams gunning, so even if they are scum, the other scum team could kill them.

Basically, neither is a good D1 lynch; if we do lynch one of the two, yuma is preferred.  That's why they fell the way they did in the popsquiz.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #513 on: November 08, 2013, 12:23:31 am »

I'm going off to read sudgy in LOTR 1 now.  If I post here again without giving my thoughts on that, somebody yell at me to get back to my homework.

That whole game is worth reading.  Robz as Traitor, Jimmmmm's magnus opus performance, Morgrim/Dsell's crash and burn...
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #514 on: November 08, 2013, 12:40:01 am »

So I've reviewed LOTR 1.  My thoughts on scum!sudgy's behavior there, to the extent germane to this game:

- He spent most of Day 1 looking for defensible places to put his vote. 
- He reacted defensively and aggressively to a town player (raerae) building a case on him, by seeking to build a case on raerae (for "semitunneling") and arguing for her scummitude for pretty much the rest of the game.
- He made effort trying to figure out where other people were leaning lynchwise, apparently so his own joining that wagon to push it through wouldn't draw attention.
- He did not pull any self-endangering gambits.  He played very, in my eyes, "safe."

The sudgy I'm seeing in this game feels a lot more like LOTR 2 town!sudgy then LOTR 1 scum!sudgy.

Robz, your thoughts on LOTR 2?
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #515 on: November 08, 2013, 12:48:11 am »

Noting that I'll be semi-VLA from now until Tuesday evening forum time.  Weekend + Veteran's Day + out of town visitors = not a lot of f.ds.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #516 on: November 08, 2013, 12:50:44 am »

Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #517 on: November 08, 2013, 12:55:32 am »

So I've reviewed LOTR 1.  My thoughts on scum!sudgy's behavior there, to the extent germane to this game:

- He spent most of Day 1 looking for defensible places to put his vote. 
- He reacted defensively and aggressively to a town player (raerae) building a case on him, by seeking to build a case on raerae (for "semitunneling") and arguing for her scummitude for pretty much the rest of the game.
- He made effort trying to figure out where other people were leaning lynchwise, apparently so his own joining that wagon to push it through wouldn't draw attention.
- He did not pull any self-endangering gambits.  He played very, in my eyes, "safe."

The sudgy I'm seeing in this game feels a lot more like LOTR 2 town!sudgy then LOTR 1 scum!sudgy.

Robz, your thoughts on LOTR 2?

Okay, yeah, I just read it. I'm struggling--really, really struggling--to understand how you could possibly, rationally draw the conclusion that LOTR2 sudgy is even remotely like the sudgy we have seen so far in this game. They are night and freaking day.

LOTR2 sudgy was active, man! Like rally active, like a sort of leading stuff at various posts. He wrote long cases! He voted a ton! It's like no sudgy I've ever seen, certainly not the sudgy we have seen here so far. Here sudgy has made like one "pressure vote" (If his vote on me can truly be cosnidered that) whereas in LOTR2 he made a billion. He leapfrogged from vote to vote. And oh my goodness those long cases.

This sudgy is a poor imitation of that sudgy.

Now, I don't think it's necessarily as simple as Lotr2 sudgy = town, so this sudgy must be scum. Because m31 sudgy (who is more like this sudgy than Lotr2 sudgy) was town. And I'm not even voting sudgy at this point, and I'm not halfway as interested in lynching him as I am in faust re-explaining his slip.

But, wow, if you think sudgy is acting similarly to how he played in LOTR2, I could not possibly disagree with you more.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #518 on: November 08, 2013, 01:04:09 am »

But you see how explicit pressure-voting to get reactions is a town!sudgy trait, as evinced by LOTR2, right?  That's my main point with respect to bringing up LOTR2.

I agree sudgy here isn't nearly as active as he was in LOTR2, but I'm not sure how much of that should be chalked up to his alignment vs. how much pressure he himself was getting in LOTR2. 

Do you think this is sudgy is closer to LOTR1 scum!sudgy?
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #519 on: November 08, 2013, 01:11:35 am »

But you see how explicit pressure-voting to get reactions is a town!sudgy trait, as evinced by LOTR2, right?  That's my main point with respect to bringing up LOTR2.

I agree sudgy here isn't nearly as active as he was in LOTR2, but I'm not sure how much of that should be chalked up to his alignment vs. how much pressure he himself was getting in LOTR2. 

Do you think this is sudgy is closer to LOTR1 scum!sudgy?

I'm not sure I remember LOTR1 well enough to say if he's close to that, bu he would have to be closer than he is to LOTR2 sudgy.

And no, he was not getting all that much pressure the whole time in LOTR2. He was at the beginnig and at the end, but he was active throughout.

I will agree that based on LOTR2, sudgy does cast pressure votes. I do not agree that this is an explicit trait of town sudgy, because I don't remember it being highly prevalent in any of his other games (M31!), and it hasn't actually been highly prevalent here. He did it once. And it's not a distinctly identifying thing. It's easy to do regardless of alignment.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #520 on: November 08, 2013, 01:13:51 am »

But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.

After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.

So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #521 on: November 08, 2013, 01:17:34 am »

But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.

After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.

So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.

OK.  We are roughly on the same page then.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #522 on: November 08, 2013, 01:19:15 am »

But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.

After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.

So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.

OK.  We are roughly on the same page then.

Have you weighed in on "Do not lynch, do not kill" yet?
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #523 on: November 08, 2013, 01:27:20 am »

Want to point out "pressure votes is town!sudgy" is an easy thing to both be self-aware of and fake as scum.
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Re: Mafia XXXIII: Toy Story Mafia (GAME IS ON DAY 1 START!!)
« Reply #524 on: November 08, 2013, 01:38:30 am »

But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.

After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.

So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.

OK.  We are roughly on the same page then.

Have you weighed in on "Do not lynch, do not kill" yet?

I asked faust to explain his "explanation."  He hasn't yet.
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