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Author Topic: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times  (Read 11358 times)

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AJD

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 10:43:27 am »
+1

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.
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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 12:04:31 pm »
0

AJD, what text are you referring to regarding the wording of the lose-track rule?  I'm looking for a place where the rule is layed out systematically.

Also, what's the relevant inn-watchtower interaction?  gain inn, shuffle actions in, trash/topdeck inn with watchtower, but oops the inn isn't in the discard so I can't trash/topdeck it?  I don't understand why this would even need a ruling.  If you want to trash/topdeck the inn but still get the shuffling-in, just don't reshuffle it in and then trash/topdeck it.  (Note that both the watchtower and inn text refer to "when you gain" the watchtower, thus you've got simultaneous effects, so you can choose the order.)
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AJD

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 12:34:55 pm »
+1

AJD, what text are you referring to regarding the wording of the lose-track rule?  I'm looking for a place where the rule is layed out systematically.

The lose-track rule is specifically stated in the Dark Ages rule booklet. The wiki quotes it as follows:

Quote
In rare circumstances an effect may try to move a card that is not where that effect expects the card to be. In those cases the card does not move - the effect has "lost track" of the card. Losing track of a card prevents it from being moved, but does not stop anything else from happening. For example, if you Procession a Madman, Procession first puts Madman in play; then you resolve Madman, getting +2 Actions and drawing cards and returning Madman to the Madman pile; then Procession fails to put Madman into play again, because Procession expects to find Madman in play, but it is not there, it's in the Madman pile; then you resolve Madman again, only getting +2 Actions this time, since it says "if you do" before the card-drawing, and you did not actually return it to the Madman pile this time; then Procession fails to trash Madman since Procession again expects to find Madman in play and it is not there; and then you gain an Action costing $1 if you can. Cards do not lose track of cards that they move, only cards that other cards move. For example when Procession puts Madman into play, that does not cause Procession to lose track of Madman; it is Madman moving itself that causes Procession to lose track of it. Things lose track of a card if something moves it, if it is the top card of a deck and gets covered up, or if it is the top card of a discard pile and gets covered up.

Quote
Also, what's the relevant inn-watchtower interaction?  gain inn, shuffle actions in, trash/topdeck inn with watchtower, but oops the inn isn't in the discard so I can't trash/topdeck it?  I don't understand why this would even need a ruling.  If you want to trash/topdeck the inn but still get the shuffling-in, just don't reshuffle it in and then trash/topdeck it.

I dunno, people don't always think that far in advance?
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Polk5440

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 12:56:28 pm »
0

That DA rulebook quotation is helpful. Thanks.
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pingpongsam

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 01:05:52 pm »
0

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.

So, what about feast? We've been TR/KCing feasts into multiple $5 cards for years, now.
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AJD

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 01:08:23 pm »
0

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.

So, what about feast? We've been TR/KCing feasts into multiple $5 cards for years, now.

As is well-known, Mining Village says "if you do" and Feast doesn't. Presumably Donald worded it that way because he did want you to be able to Throne Feast, but didn't want the trick to work for Mining Village. I mean, you know, he playtested these things.
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pingpongsam

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 01:13:26 pm »
0

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.

So, what about feast? We've been TR/KCing feasts into multiple $5 cards for years, now.

As is well-known, Mining Village says "if you do" and Feast doesn't. Presumably Donald worded it that way because he did want you to be able to Throne Feast, but didn't want the trick to work for Mining Village. I mean, you know, he playtested these things.

What? The assumption is that "you did". And since you did trash Mining Village you can't trash it again to get the $2 buying power. So, why is that since you did trash Feast you can do it again to gain yet another card? "If you do" means you get to choose whether or not to do it but doesn't alter the mechanics of trashing when you do trash.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 01:19:07 pm »
+2

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.

So, what about feast? We've been TR/KCing feasts into multiple $5 cards for years, now.

As is well-known, Mining Village says "if you do" and Feast doesn't. Presumably Donald worded it that way because he did want you to be able to Throne Feast, but didn't want the trick to work for Mining Village. I mean, you know, he playtested these things.

What? The assumption is that "you did". And since you did trash Mining Village you can't trash it again to get the $2 buying power. So, why is that since you did trash Feast you can do it again to gain yet another card? "If you do" means you get to choose whether or not to do it but doesn't alter the mechanics of trashing when you do trash.
Feast's gain is not dependent on whether it's trashed, because it doesn't say "if you do".  If I follow the instructions on Feast twice:
Trash this (success)
Gain a card costing up to $5 (success)
Trash this (fail, it's already in the trash)
Gain a card costing up to $5 (success)

If I follow the instructions on Mining Village twice:
Trash this (success)
If I did (yes, I did), +$2 (success)
Trash this (fail)
If I did (no, I didn't), +$2 (fail)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 01:26:13 pm »
+1

I semi-suspect one of the main reasons for the way the lose-track rule is worded is that Donald didn't want you to be able to Throne Room a Mining Village and get money twice, and built the specific rule around that.

So, what about feast? We've been TR/KCing feasts into multiple $5 cards for years, now.

As is well-known, Mining Village says "if you do" and Feast doesn't. Presumably Donald worded it that way because he did want you to be able to Throne Feast, but didn't want the trick to work for Mining Village. I mean, you know, he playtested these things.

What? The assumption is that "you did". And since you did trash Mining Village you can't trash it again to get the $2 buying power. So, why is that since you did trash Feast you can do it again to gain yet another card? "If you do" means you get to choose whether or not to do it but doesn't alter the mechanics of trashing when you do trash.

A few things wrong there.  There is no assumption that "you did."  There are simply two instructions which you must follow (as long as you are able to).  Like I tell you, "Walk the (blue) dog.  Pick up some milk from the store."  I want both to happen, not only the second to happy conditional on if the first does.  If the dog dies and you can't walk him (and the cat drags him in later), you still have to get the milk.

"If you do" means "If the previous instruction was successfully completed."  It does not imply you had a choice to complete the instruction.
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pingpongsam

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 01:28:27 pm »
+1

I see said the Madman.
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Polk5440

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2013, 01:55:00 pm »
0

Part of the confusion (even with the DA rule quotation) is that it's not obvious that you can't trash something that's in the trash or return a card to a pile (in Madman's case) that's already in the pile.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2013, 02:40:31 pm »
+4

I don't think that getting $4 from double trashing a single Throne Room/Mining Village play was such a big deal to Donald.  A somewhat bigger issue would be playing Throne Room/Mining Village, and then trashing the first time but not the second time.  Without the lose track rule, the Throne Room would be putting the trashed Mining Village back into play.  Thus, without the lose track rule you could get $2 and then take the Mining Village back out of the trash.
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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2013, 02:51:10 pm »
0

Summing up:

1. You can't move things to where they already are.  Ergo you can't trash the mining village twice and you can't return the madman twice. 

2. If card X puts card Y somewhere and then tries to move it someplace else, it fails to do so if Y isn't where X put it when it comes time to move it.  Ergo you don't trash the madman to procession or the spoils to the counterfeit.  Note that this is true even if X and Y are the same card, e.g. Hermit/Scheme.

It's confounding that procession/counterfeit/etc can play madman/spoils twice even though they can't trash them afterwards.  Apparently "playing a card" isn't contingent on that card being "in play"!?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:24:10 pm by flies »
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michaeljb

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2013, 06:43:56 pm »
0

Apparently "playing a card" isn't contingent on that card being "in play"!?

Exactly.

the instruction "Play an Action card" must really mean "Move the Action card to your play area. Follow the instructions on the card."

(and the same would be true for "play a Treasure card" as well)

As with Feast, there is no "if you do," so you just do as much as you can. Sometimes you fail to move the card into play, but you still get to follow the instructions.

Now that I've bothered to actually look it up, I think this is consistent with the original rulebook:

Quote from: Base Rules
To play an Action, the player takes an Action card from his hand and lays it face-up in his play area. He announces which card he is playing and follows the instructions written on that card from top to bottom.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2013, 07:51:24 pm »
0

You need to announce the card?  I've been playing wrong for years.
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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2013, 08:29:57 pm »
+4

You need to announce the card?  I've been playing wrong for years.

Definitely if you're playing Herald.
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Re: Sir Vander and trashing multiple times
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2013, 09:13:38 pm »
+1

You need to announce the card?  I've been playing wrong for years.

Definitely if you're playing Herald.

I don't know about you but when I'm playing in real life I do tend to verbally go through each step of my play, especially when I'm playing with people who are relatively new to the game (i.e. everyone I play with in real life).
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