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Author Topic: GokoDom II: Endgame!  (Read 26248 times)

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Kirian

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GokoDom II: Endgame!
« on: October 07, 2013, 09:04:50 am »
+6

In a convenient (for me) coincidence, our top 8 all have 11 or 12 points, and the #9 position has 10 points, so our tiebreaker system ends up being used only for seeding.  Our final eight are:

(W-D-L)

eliegel34 (6-0-1)
-Stef- (6-0-1)
A Drowned Kernel (5-1-1)
ragingduckd (4-3-0)
WanderingWinder (5-1-1)
Titandrake (5-1-1)
SheCantSayNo (5-1-1)
pitrpicko (5-1-1)

This week's round:

eliegel34 vs pitrpicko
-Stef- vs SheCantSayNo
A Drowned Kernel vs Titandrake
ragingduckd (AI) vs WanderingWinder

Good luck!!
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 11:36:31 am »
0

That's a favorable draw, in a sense, as now I'm due for some pretty good shuffle luck during the actual match ;)
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 01:55:51 pm »
0

I'm sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I wanted to point something out.  AI went 4-3-0 in the qualifier, I went 4-2-1.  He's in the finals and I'm not, and if I understand the tournament rules correctly this is because one of my wins was by default.  I understand giving more credit to a player for actually winning a match rather than winning by default, but on the other hand, it also means that I'm effectively being punished for something beyond my control.

I don't mean to make a big stink about this, I just would like this issue to be taken into consideration for the next tournament.
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achmed_sender

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 02:00:51 pm »
0

I'm sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I wanted to point something out.  AI went 4-3-0 in the qualifier, I went 4-2-1.  He's in the finals and I'm not, and if I understand the tournament rules correctly this is because one of my wins was by default.  I understand giving more credit to a player for actually winning a match rather than winning by default, but on the other hand, it also means that I'm effectively being punished for something beyond my control.

I don't mean to make a big stink about this, I just would like this issue to be taken into consideration for the next tournament.

But he also has 11 points to your 10, so I see no need to change this.
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bama

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 02:33:20 pm »
0

I'm kinda in the same bucket as you...IIRC my match record is 5-2-0...but one of those wins is by default when someone dropped out...

I'm sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but I wanted to point something out.  AI went 4-3-0 in the qualifier, I went 4-2-1.  He's in the finals and I'm not, and if I understand the tournament rules correctly this is because one of my wins was by default.  I understand giving more credit to a player for actually winning a match rather than winning by default, but on the other hand, it also means that I'm effectively being punished for something beyond my control.

I don't mean to make a big stink about this, I just would like this issue to be taken into consideration for the next tournament.
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 02:55:31 pm »
0

But he also has 11 points to your 10, so I see no need to change this.
Well, I'm confused then.  The "Rules and Regulations" thread says, "C. Results of W, WD, and WB are worth 2 match points.  Results of D, DD, and BR are worth 1 match point.  A result of L is worth 0 match points."  So going by that, my record should give me a score of 9 (4x2 + 2x0 + 1x1) and his score should be 8 (4x2 + 3x0 + 0x1).  What am I leaving out here?

I guess it doesn't matter anyway.  Reading the rules again, I see that opponents' Solkoff score is also a factor so I guess between that and the one default I had, that explains AI getting into the finals with a worse overall match record.

But my original point stands: is it really wise to punish players for winning by default?
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 02:59:42 pm »
+1

The format is W-D-L, not W-L-D. AI has 4 wins 3 draws, you have 4 wins 1 loss 2 draws.

Edit: As for the win by default, it is a little iffy that you can lose a top 8 spot for something out of your control. However, one side effect is that there is little incentive to try to intentionally draw your way into the top 8. I do think it's a little weird that you can get a win by default and not make it in, when you would have wanted to play a match anyways.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:02:49 pm by Titandrake »
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 03:20:53 pm »
0

OH!  By that notation I went 4-1-2, which is straight-up worse than AI.  I'm an idiot.  Sorry everyone.  Nothing to see here, move along.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:22:06 pm by jaybeez »
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 03:28:18 pm »
0

Man, I just missed out. Well, my best tournament showing thus far. Good luck all! Really strong players here.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 03:35:14 pm »
0

Edit: As for the win by default, it is a little iffy that you can lose a top 8 spot for something out of your control. However, one side effect is that there is little incentive to try to intentionally draw your way into the top 8. I do think it's a little weird that you can get a win by default and not make it in, when you would have wanted to play a match anyways.

There's no penalty for Win by Default... so you can't get bumped form the Top 8 due to someone dropping out from under you.  In fact, it gives you abetter chance at getting into the Top 8 because you didn't have to play a match to get those 2 points.

There is a small penalty for Draw by Default, in order to avert "handshake" matches facilitating someone getting into the top tier.  However, even that wouldn't have come into play here, as all the Top 8 played all of their (scheduled) matches, and there is a nice clear cutoff this time around (8 players with 11 or 12 points).
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bama

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 06:38:06 pm »
0

Quick question for perhaps next time:

Other tournaments like the FIFA World Cup award 3 points for wins and 1 point for draws, rather than the 2/1 system (which I think used to be the system in FIFA as well).

Any thought to weighting wins more than just 2 simple draws?  You could perhaps downgrade a WD to 2 points if that feels better...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 07:06:31 pm »
0

So, there aren't any rules.

Watno

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 09:08:20 pm »
+2

Quick question for perhaps next time:

Other tournaments like the FIFA World Cup award 3 points for wins and 1 point for draws, rather than the 2/1 system (which I think used to be the system in FIFA as well).

Any thought to weighting wins more than just 2 simple draws?  You could perhaps downgrade a WD to 2 points if that feels better...

That's only because Soccer is a badly designed sport, and requires this rule to make people actually try tow in instead of just playing passively. There is no need reason to penalize draws in Dominion.

Gratz to the finalists btw, hope I'll do better again next season.
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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 09:22:11 pm »
0

How can I check how I placed in the end?
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eliegel34

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2013, 02:25:45 am »
+4

suggestion - Once you get to 8 players for a top 8, I'd prefer it if #1 is allowed to select an opponent from the other 7 players. Then the highest unselected player (probably #2) chooses someone, and then once more. This system prevents players to ever want to lose/draw a round to positively affect their schedule in the playoffs.
(without this suggestion - suppose you know that #2 is much stronger then #1, then you'd rather end up #8 then #7, or something weird like that. You could also rather be #2 then #1)

I am convinced Stef can see into the future.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 02:30:08 am »
+5

suggestion - Once you get to 8 players for a top 8, I'd prefer it if #1 is allowed to select an opponent from the other 7 players. Then the highest unselected player (probably #2) chooses someone, and then once more. This system prevents players to ever want to lose/draw a round to positively affect their schedule in the playoffs.
(without this suggestion - suppose you know that #2 is much stronger then #1, then you'd rather end up #8 then #7, or something weird like that. You could also rather be #2 then #1)

I am convinced Stef can see into the future.

....says the person who beat Stef in Round 1.
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andwilk

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2013, 09:36:00 am »
0

Good luck to the playoff qualifiers!  Also, thanks to Kirian for organizing these tournaments and I'll be looking forward to Gokodom III.
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2013, 09:51:07 am »
0

So, there aren't any rules.

To expand on this: what are we supposed to do if it's 3-3 after 6 games? Obviously keep playing until there's a winner, but according to what structure? The fairest option seems to me to repeatedly extend the match by two games (so that each player can be P1 once) until it's no longer tied.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 10:05:57 am »
0


That would indeed be the fairest option, but I hesitate to force anything longer than best of 7.  So we'll do this: use the standard six game rules.  If a tiebreaker is needed, play one more game with the higher seeded player as first player.  If that is a tie, alternate start players until someone gets a win.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 10:08:00 am by Kirian »
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2013, 05:51:37 pm »
+12

Fun fact: pitrpicko and I are the only people who don't own sets, and theoretically we could meet in finals to have a Base-only showdown.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 01:02:03 am »
+2

Titandrake beats A Drowned Kernel 4-2

Game One

This game took like an hour because we both had to think so much, Soothsayer makes the difference here I think.

Game Two

Rebuild nonsense. Nothing to see here.

Game Three

Noble Brigand mirror with Island and Silk Road mixing it up a little. I grab some green earlier and get lucky with my brigands.

Game Four

Titandrake kills me here with a workshop/forge engine. Pretty damn awesome.

Game Five

I almost pull ahead with 6-point Fairgrounds but it's not to be.

Game Six

Ironworks/gardens. I try to integrate Feodums but my trade route never collides and he takes it.

Thanks for the match Titandrake, and good luck to you and everyone else in the rest of the finals. I had a great time this tournament, and I'm a little baffled that I made it this far. Can't wait for next season!
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 01:21:06 am »
+3

My thoughts:

Game 1: I'm still working out whether you having 5/2 here is bad or not. Wharf opening is nice, but then you don't have early Remake. I think Soothsayer helped, but getting more Hamlets and making you unable to buy more Wharves without risking a 3-pile mattered more. Luckily, game goes long enough for 6 VP Fairgrounds to be meaningful.

Game 2: Well, at least we both got 5/2.

Game 3: NB mirrors are weird. I keep hitting $6+ and buy Golds, and I think at some point I shouldn't have bought Golds. In a very heavy Big Money board. Yeah. Islands ftw!

Game 4: This is the best engine I've ever done and I don't see much beating it. Early Tactician, get a Forge off of it. Transition into a double-Tact deck with no treasures, that plays 3+ Workshops to gain two $4 costs and one $3 cost that Forge into a Colony each turn. This gives me both a Colony every turn and amazing pile pressure. As soon as you missed the Colony I could win instantly by emptying the Workshop pile and drawing those same Workshops with all the +Actions I had. Absolutely ridiculous.

Game 5: I don't know why I opened Death Cart, I got really lucky that it collided with both Ruins. I was expecting more IGG, but then you realize Embassy-Counterfeit-BM is pretty darn fast. The end is standard rolling the dice, hoping the other person doesn't have $8.

Game 6: Not really much to say, it's all about whether Trade Route hits Feodum, and here it didn't.

Thanks for the match. I'm just astounded I'm still in this thing.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:23:24 am by Titandrake »
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PitrPicko

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 07:39:37 pm »
+3

PitrPicko 4 - 3 eliegen

Thanks once again for great games, and also for finding some time to play with me even when I gave you just few posible times, because of my busy week.

Game 1
Here eliegen showed, that he deserved place in top 8 and it will be no easy match. Buying some FGs and province T5 powered by smithy. I was trying some shanty town and cellar, but his strategy was obviously better. And he finished with comfortable lead. Alse I wasn't even thinking about FG, but I think it was right call to contest them, however I still lost.

Game 2
This game is real shenanigans. I wonder how other great engine players would played this one. We were both opening chapel/HT with procession and TR on board. Also nice actions in all price ranges (Shanty, HT,Proc,TR, Market, Jester, Pillage, Nobles, Expand).
I thought that I've lost this game when I've hit Chapel(HT,3xCopper), but even worse shuffle luck for eliegel; hitting Chapel T5 with no greens. I've bought Jester first while eliegel went for market. Here I think getting Jester was really good idea, since both deck was very slim and those cards from jester were a great target for procession. Very interesting game, plenty of tough desicions for both players.

Game 3
In this game I went for some very complicated trashing with Counterfeit and altar, while eliegel bought few upragdes, and as time showed, that can tripness of upgrade is really key feature. I wasn't able to connect my cards corectly and eligel grabbed the victory. Simple Upgrade showed it's power.

Game 4
Goko probably likes us. Also interesting board with tough desicions. But this game started really unlucky for eliegel. Opening double terminal, as we know, has some chance that those terminals will colide, but what is even worse is fact, that they can colide T5...
We had MS here and lots of trashing (TradeR, Bishop, Altar).
When I saw, that eliegel opened double traderoute, I chose to buy a bishop to grab some poins before Market squares will bring in golds. We both kept gaining more and more golds and then just buying some provinces. In last turn eliegel broke PPR and I've got the last province. It is true that eliegel said that he misplayed this, but I'm not so sure. My /draw/ deck in that moment wasn't really good and it could easily happen, that I'd have less than $8. Luckily I had 3 Golds and I bought last prov and got the win.

Game 5
In this game I had the plan to start trashing eliegel's good treasuries with my pirate ship but it was very very slow and it didn't really happen. I bought PS too late...

Game 6
I was lucky enough to open 5/2 on governor board (I think, that governor is weaker on colony board, but gold gaining / silver giving is kind of attack since silver is not really wanted in deck), but eliegel's 4/3 meant cutpurse/urchin opening. And that Mercenary gave me really hard times. He's also bringing few advisors, not bad for his deck. I chose one urchin with no other attack just as discard attack when cards option on governor were chosen. But in T11 my urchin was buried deep in my draw deck and that meant 11-cards turn for eliegel. Luckily for me, he didn't have enough golds from governors and bought "only" colony+platinum. After that I bought Forge keeping in mind fact that game is going to end soon and with sufficient buy I can forge some cards (possibly governor+altar) into colony.
After that eliegel goes double colony leaving 3 colonies on board with 15points lead. But Išve decided to pull this off and used governor for mega draw, forging altar+hamlet+urchin into colony and double colonying myself.
To be honest this was the only game where I felt like having worse luck then eliegel, but luckily enough that forge really made this ;)

Game 7
Double tactician with FV, cities, conspirators and no terminals.
We obviously both headed for double tac, with FV and conspirator support. I liked my opening conspirator/FV better than this ironmonger/FV. I really wanted to win that conspirator split. But we both ignored stonemason as a gainer and soft trasher. I didn't really wanted another dead card in my deck, but I should consider buying double conspirator thanks to stonemason. It all ended with 4-6 conspirator split and I really thought that I'm done. Luckily for me I've got few more cities when consirators were out and that allowed me to play more conspirators and lower overall my deck variance.
Crucial were T12 when eliegel missed his second tac, and that probably made this game. He bought two provinces but reenabling double tac takes some time.
So while I was having some better luck I really want to point out my estate buy T15.
Situation after estate buy: PP(22VP)(3P,4E) - E(24VP)(3P,1D,3E). And because Eliegel didn't played his tact turn before and no +buy were on board I was sure he cannot risk breaking PPR and he had to buy a duchy. After that I had chance to double province thanks to my tactician. However that didn't happend T16. But even eliegel didn't get those needed 16, and I managed to hit 16 in T17 and double province, thanks to tact and cities.



Summary: Thanks for games. It didn't feel really how it should. I think your luck was much much worse then mine. I know it is hard to lose due to bad luck especially when one is playing better strategy, but we should keep in mind that luck factor in this game is still present and it can turn worse strategies into win. Or risky strategies into win.
Also I hope this will not change your attitude towards dominion. Just take it as it is and try to win GKDM III. I'm pretty sure, you have fair chance to reach Top8 again ;)



Fun fact: pitrpicko and I are the only people who don't own sets, and theoretically we could meet in finals to have a Base-only showdown.
I did my part. Your turn ;)  :P
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom II: Endgame!
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 07:41:14 pm »
+5

WW 3 - 0 ragingduckd (AI)

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131010/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1381442932025.txt


Code: [Select]
Lighthouse, Vagrant, Wishing Well, Advisor, Envoy, Silk Road, Spy, Haggler, Soothsayer, Fairgrounds

I immediately look at shiny fairgrounds, with Haggler and Soothsayer as good support, and Silk Road not bad. We both go 5/2 Soothsayer/lighthouse and... then he diverges for a bunch of duchies. I really don't understand this, as he goes for them quite solidly over fairgrounds (which had to be worth at least 4). My only guess is that he was looking for a quick 3-pile, and Silk Road, and Soothsayer actually does give good longevity, but I just wasn't going to be obliging that, and it ended up just taking forever...

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131010/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1381443481013.txt


Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Fortune Teller, Fortress, Gardens, Treasure Map, Wandering Minstrel, Merchant Ship, Soothsayer, Treasury, Grand Market

I can't resist gardens on a board like this. It's really important to note that the only draw here is the opponent's Soothsayer. With said curser around again, I don't think a Grand Market Plan is really going to cut it - you just go for money. And I dip into Gardens what might be a good little bit early (I really like candlestick maker for gardens, plus soothsayer gives you longevity and lots of cards, but still...), but he follows me, and I don't think his deck was nearly as well set up. From there, it's just trying to snuff out any possibilities he was going to have, keeping tight wraps on everything.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131010/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1381444189557.txt


Code: [Select]
Lighthouse, Doctor, Oracle, Village, Alchemist, Plaza, Remake, Mystic, Tribute, Wharf

Definitely the closest of the three, and I relished my first turn here. Wharf is obviously key, and with Remake, Village, and Plaza, engines look pretty clear, too. The difference is basically that he goes for all wharves, whereas I opt for a gold over my 5th, allowing him to win the wharf split 6-4. On the other hand, he doesn't have quite enough villages and, more important, there really isn't any payload here but money. I double province, double again, and... whiff. Actually, I didn't calculate almost anything that I should have, relying way too much on feel (which was a correct feel, but still). If he has a good hand there, Province+duchy+estate ties, or province+duchy+duchy wins. Well, okay, he doesn't really have the money for that, as he never had time to get it, so I guess there wasn't that much danger. But well, I like the money a little better (i.e. I think he slightly overbuilt), and first turn really was big here.
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