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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside  (Read 96468 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #325 on: October 10, 2013, 08:06:21 pm »
+4

I was under the impression that we weren't really supposed to talk about our cards until after the final voting closed, although maybe it's okay since discussion on the two finalists has pretty much died out anyway.

Either way, when you (people in general) talk about your own cards, can you please quote the card before you talk about it?  I know it's harder to remember than it is when talking about other people's cards, since you're already familiar with your own card, but I (and presumably other readers) am a lot less likely to read what you have to say about it if I have to take a few extra clicks and a ctrl+f to find out what you're talking about.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #326 on: October 11, 2013, 12:58:21 am »
0

Dock could be a good name for Recycle if it wins. It has the same Noun/Verb ambiguity as Butcher, and what do you do at a Dock? You repair ships.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #327 on: October 11, 2013, 01:11:52 am »
+4

So, I know this is too late, but I would like to point out that people (including the author of the card) are looking at Observatory in a way that I think is wrong. They look at it and see it does something better the more expensive the card you trash, they peg it as 'oh, it's a T4B card', and then the evaluate it solely as a T4B card (how likely is this to make me want to trash expensive stuff?) as opposed to just as a plain card. I mean, the thing is, you don't want to trash expensive stuff to it really, it's just a worse apprentice. Fine. But it's going to be cheaper than apprentice. Like, compare it to forager - it doesn't give you money, but forager reasonably often doesn't do that either, early on, and this can draw you a card. Forget the filtering, it draws you cards reasonably often. Indeed, the biggest knock on it to me is that there is this sort of weird feeling where there's a huge jump from trashing a freebie to a 1-cost, because you get a card. But just as a non-terminal trasher which occasionally does a little more, it must be a pretty decent card.

I feel like people did the same thing with my card last week - stronghold (gave you 3 spoils, VP per 2 spoils in deck at game-end, cost 6). People see, "oh, it's alt-VP", then judge it only on its VP-gaining abilities "You have to hoard spoils in order to make it worth anything, hoarding spoils gives you lots of dead cards, that's bad, the card is terrible." I mean, sure, but nobody is forcing you to play it this way. You can spend those spoils - and even gain them back again later. And here, same thing, nobody is forcing you to trash expensive cards, just go ahead and trash your coppers.

Recycle, the thing there is that it does a lot of stuff for you at 5, as a very strong T4B, and well maybe that's fine, but I am worried about the situation where you go Turn A: trash (gold-or-even-province), gain province. Turn A+1: Trash province-into-province. Pile trashing provinces isn't necessarily bad, but doing it so much and directly is pretty dangerous. Honestly, I think this is why rebuild feels so un-fun, it pile trashes your main victory cards, and makes it very very hard to come back from behind. So that is my big worry, apart from it just being a bit too powerful at the moment.

eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #328 on: October 11, 2013, 01:23:07 am »
+1

So, I know this is too late, but I would like to point out that people (including the author of the card) are looking at Observatory in a way that I think is wrong. They look at it and see it does something better the more expensive the card you trash, they peg it as 'oh, it's a T4B card', and then the evaluate it solely as a T4B card (how likely is this to make me want to trash expensive stuff?) as opposed to just as a plain card. I mean, the thing is, you don't want to trash expensive stuff to it really, it's just a worse apprentice. Fine. But it's going to be cheaper than apprentice. Like, compare it to forager - it doesn't give you money, but forager reasonably often doesn't do that either, early on, and this can draw you a card. Forget the filtering, it draws you cards reasonably often. Indeed, the biggest knock on it to me is that there is this sort of weird feeling where there's a huge jump from trashing a freebie to a 1-cost, because you get a card. But just as a non-terminal trasher which occasionally does a little more, it must be a pretty decent card.

I feel like people did the same thing with my card last week - stronghold (gave you 3 spoils, VP per 2 spoils in deck at game-end, cost 6). People see, "oh, it's alt-VP", then judge it only on its VP-gaining abilities "You have to hoard spoils in order to make it worth anything, hoarding spoils gives you lots of dead cards, that's bad, the card is terrible." I mean, sure, but nobody is forcing you to play it this way. You can spend those spoils - and even gain them back again later. And here, same thing, nobody is forcing you to trash expensive cards, just go ahead and trash your coppers.

Recycle, the thing there is that it does a lot of stuff for you at 5, as a very strong T4B, and well maybe that's fine, but I am worried about the situation where you go Turn A: trash (gold-or-even-province), gain province. Turn A+1: Trash province-into-province. Pile trashing provinces isn't necessarily bad, but doing it so much and directly is pretty dangerous. Honestly, I think this is why rebuild feels so un-fun, it pile trashes your main victory cards, and makes it very very hard to come back from behind. So that is my big worry, apart from it just being a bit too powerful at the moment.

I gave you plenty of credit for Stronghold; it was one of my favourites. :P

The thing about Observatory, for me at least, is that TfB is what makes it different.  If I look at it as just a cheap trasher for the early game, then yeah, I would compare it to Forager.  Not just that, also Lookout and Trade Route, I think.  And the thing is, it doesn't really feel that different to me -- it feels like it's just treading old ground in a way that isn't all that interesting.  The TfB aspect is what sets it apart, but even then it's not very exciting to me.

With Recycle, yes there is some danger there but it should be possible to mitigate those issues.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #329 on: October 11, 2013, 02:37:08 am »
0

I think changing Recycle to exactly $1, exactly $2 would fix the aformentioned issues. It's also in line with other durations; weak first, then strong. It's not quite as good as Expand for power $5->Province because you have to wait a turn, in which the game could end. In fact I think it's worse enough for the card to be reasonable at $5.

Also if it's too strong, a compulsory Chancellor effect means you'll only see it once per shuffle. Always wanted to see that nerf on a duration card.

Another nerf could be if the card from the first trash is topdecked instead of set aside.

Also there's no reason Seaside can't have a $6.

I definitely want the card to win so we can elaborate how to balance the fantastic idea that fills a gap in Seaside.
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ta56636

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #330 on: October 11, 2013, 06:40:23 am »
+1

I think changing Recycle to exactly $1, exactly $2 would fix the aformentioned issues. It's also in line with other durations; weak first, then strong. It's not quite as good as Expand for power $5->Province because you have to wait a turn, in which the game could end. In fact I think it's worse enough for the card to be reasonable at $5.

Also if it's too strong, a compulsory Chancellor effect means you'll only see it once per shuffle. Always wanted to see that nerf on a duration card.

Another nerf could be if the card from the first trash is topdecked instead of set aside.

Also there's no reason Seaside can't have a $6.

I definitely want the card to win so we can elaborate how to balance the fantastic idea that fills a gap in Seaside.

Might be a bit crazy, but what about changing the order, something like:

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down.

At the start of your next turn, trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing exactly $1 more than that trashed card.

Return the set aside card to your hand.


It'd also be a bit like outpost in that you have to decide to trash a card before you see your choices.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 08:14:10 am by ta56636 »
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #331 on: October 11, 2013, 12:55:19 pm »
+2

Just make Recycle not hit Victory cards the second time!
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #332 on: October 11, 2013, 06:31:00 pm »
+1

I think changing Recycle to exactly $1, exactly $2 would fix the aformentioned issues. It's also in line with other durations; weak first, then strong. It's not quite as good as Expand for power $5->Province because you have to wait a turn, in which the game could end. In fact I think it's worse enough for the card to be reasonable at $5.

Also if it's too strong, a compulsory Chancellor effect means you'll only see it once per shuffle. Always wanted to see that nerf on a duration card.

Another nerf could be if the card from the first trash is topdecked instead of set aside.

Also there's no reason Seaside can't have a $6.

I definitely want the card to win so we can elaborate how to balance the fantastic idea that fills a gap in Seaside.

Might be a bit crazy, but what about changing the order, something like:

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down.

At the start of your next turn, trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing exactly $1 more than that trashed card.

Return the set aside card to your hand.


It'd also be a bit like outpost in that you have to decide to trash a card before you see your choices.
If we switch to "exactly more" as your wording does, then the Province==> Province path goes away anyway, as does some of the competition with Expand. No need to reverse the order to fix that. I'd much prefer leaving the original order (or making the $2 next turn/$1 this turn, that's plausible, though it does risk making it too Expandy), because it provides a safety valve for when your next hand is all colonies or whatever.

Sure, it's unlikely that the next hand will have literally nothing you can safely trash, but the psychological factor is similar to the one some people have with Lookout. That's not necessarily a gamebreaker (people can learn to overcome), but it's a negative factor that doesn't really need to be there for this card to work.

I also second AJD's suggestion of "Refit" as a better name for the card.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #333 on: October 30, 2013, 12:09:54 pm »
0

Reserved for results

Just noticed that the actual results aren't shown yet. Do you still have the results somewhere, Last Footnote?
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #334 on: October 30, 2013, 02:45:57 pm »
0

Reserved for results

Just noticed that the actual results aren't shown yet. Do you still have the results somewhere, Last Footnote?
But the results of the poll are shown in the thread when you log in. Recycle won by about 2:1.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #335 on: October 30, 2013, 04:18:00 pm »
+1

Reserved for results

Just noticed that the actual results aren't shown yet. Do you still have the results somewhere, Last Footnote?
But the results of the poll are shown in the thread when you log in. Recycle won by about 2:1.

Right, but I would be interested in how my card did.
(@LF: I don't want you to hurry, it just seemed like you forgot to post the whole results after doing the poll, which I fully understand)
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #336 on: November 08, 2013, 02:28:35 pm »
0

OK, I'm catching up one step at a time!  ;D I'll compile the full results of the initial Seaside poll into a table now.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #337 on: November 08, 2013, 02:47:54 pm »
+1

Full results are now up!
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Archetype

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #338 on: November 08, 2013, 05:32:04 pm »
+2

Good job on winning, yuma! I'd feel bummed out if the card that beat mine was crap, but I really like yours! A very unique twist on the Remodel family that I think is executed well.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #339 on: November 08, 2013, 05:47:20 pm »
0

So my submission was Shipyard (C).  It's been long enough that I don't really remember the comments on it, but I think the main criticism was that it's too similar to Counting House, which is has many issues that limit it to being a very niche card.

Quote
Shipyard (C)
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
+2 Buys. Now and at the start of your next turn: Look through your discard pile, reveal up to 3 Coppers from it, and put them into your hand.

While this is in play, when you would gain a card, you may gain a Copper instead.

I think my submission actually does a fair amount to differentiate it from Counting House and make it viable more often.  As a Duration, it is far less likely to whiff than Counting House.  It also comes with its own +Buy.  With both of those in mind, you can set up Shipyard to give full benefit pretty often.  The while-in-play also grants some utility against junking attacks.

Anyway, that's about it.  Congrats to yuma!  Hopefully someone comes up with a better card name. ;)
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yuma

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #340 on: November 08, 2013, 07:20:18 pm »
0

Anyway, that's about it.  Congrats to yuma!  Hopefully someone comes up with a better card name. ;)

Thanks, I think we kinda decided on one already... "Refit?"

I liked that quite a bit.

I should also note that unfortunately I haven't had a chance to playtest this card as I haven't had a chance to play IRL dominion in a really long time... A newborn makes it kinda hard, but hopefully at somepoint in the future I hope to try it out. But first I have to try and teach my wife the mechanic of "Durations." I tried a while ago when I wanted to buy Seaside, but she vetoed it so we got Cornucopia instead.... So it might be a while. If anyone else wants to try it out first I wouldn't be offended.
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