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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside  (Read 96771 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 11:11:45 am »
+1

Yes, each Duration card would set up an event to happen "at the start of your next turn", and if multiple things happen at the same time (to the same player), that player chooses the order.

Probably better not have Duration cards that attack yourself though...

Actually i kind of like the idea. Usually Durations are bad now and good later. Turning this around could be used in an interesting way, i think.

Have you thought about why all of the current Duration cards work in the exact opposite way that you are proposing?  Maybe there's a reason?

Minor benefit later is boring (in the "why is it even there" sense), but with a good "while this is in play" effect it may be relevant. The main design issue is that the 2nd effect has a default "+1 card, +1 action" built in so the simple "now and at the start of your next turn" benefits tend to favour the latter.

Judging by all the "good ruins" cards in the current competition, I'm predicting a lot of "hangover" cards. Has this concept been as thoroughly analysed as the "good curse" problem? I'm not a big fan personally but I'll wait to see the designs.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 11:14:01 am »
0

Card Names:

Pirate's Cove
Bounty
Booty
Plunder
Armada
Compass
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 11:18:29 am »
+5

It's time to play everyone's favorite game:
Guess how many of the Seaside submissions will be Duration cards!

It's more like:
Guess how many people will write Duration cards that assume that Duration effects happen because the Duration card is still out. They don't. It's a reminder, people! It stays out as a reminder.
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Kirian

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2013, 12:50:06 pm »
0

It's time to play everyone's favorite game:
Guess how many of the Seaside submissions will be Duration cards!

It's more like:
Guess how many people will write Duration cards that assume that Duration effects happen because the Duration card is still out. They don't. It's a reminder, people! It stays out as a reminder.

Which suggests an interesting design space of cards that stay out but don't do anything on the next turn... presumably their on play would be very powerful, so they'd be left out in order to be played less often.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2013, 01:40:32 pm »
+4

It's time to play everyone's favorite game:
Guess how many of the Seaside submissions will be Duration cards!

It's more like:
Guess how many people will write Duration cards that assume that Duration effects happen because the Duration card is still out. They don't. It's a reminder, people! It stays out as a reminder.

Which suggests an interesting design space of cards that stay out but don't do anything on the next turn... presumably their on play would be very powerful, so they'd be left out in order to be played less often.

I think that concept is only interesting to Dominion academics. It would fly in the face of the most fundamental rule of Durations: they get discarded during the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which they do something. In fact, that's the only rule of Durations.

Heck, I'm a Dominion academic, and even I don't find "this card is more likely to miss the reshuffle" a compelling mechanic.
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2013, 09:29:32 am »
0

I think my submission this time around is a little more elegant and thought-through than my Dark Ages one.  I hope I got the wording right.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2013, 01:55:32 pm »
+3

Whew, I'm doing a lot of rewordings this contest. I've been sending out the rewordings for approval, though, as long as they're more than small, cosmetic changes.

I've also created a simple template, which should eliminate incidences of me forgetting to include a card's types or cost. I'm (slowly) learning! :D
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soulnet

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 05:00:03 pm »
0

It's more like:
Guess how many people will write Duration cards that assume that Duration effects happen because the Duration card is still out. They don't. It's a reminder, people! It stays out as a reminder.

I guess I see the point, although they are not JUST reminders. They reduce the cost of Peddler, for instance.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 05:06:18 pm »
+2

It's more like:
Guess how many people will write Duration cards that assume that Duration effects happen because the Duration card is still out. They don't. It's a reminder, people! It stays out as a reminder.

I guess I see the point, although they are not JUST reminders. They reduce the cost of Peddler, for instance.

Sure, but I've already gotten a couple of submissions that assume if a Duration leaves play early, its effects are cancelled. They are not!
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soulnet

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2013, 05:24:49 pm »
0

Sure, but I've already gotten a couple of submissions that assume if a Duration leaves play early, its effects are cancelled. They are not!

The thing is, maybe you want a "While this is in play" and you don't want to tuck in an effect just to let the card lie there. I guess you could tuck in +$0 and argue that that is an effect, or some extremely dumb effect like "gain a card costing exactly $200", but I don't think that's a nice way to put it.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2013, 12:58:01 pm »
+14

I've been meaning to write some general musing on the Duration Type all week, and I'm just now finding the block of time to do it.

I'm going to simplify the Duration type a little, and say that a Duration card has three effects:  "on-play", "while in play", "next turn".  Outpost is a bit of an outlier here, so I won't worry about it.  In particular, I'm not going to address cards which hypothetically stay out for three or more turns.  I'm sure a few of these will be submitted, and I hope they are being designed for a reason and not just for the hell of it.

Of these three effects, only Lighthouse does the "while in play" effect.  This is really an interesting area to explore for card designs in my opinion, although I did not submit such a card.  Effectively, Lighthouse uses the Duration type to get a "between turns" effect, which is pretty cool.

Now, aside from enabling the "between turns" effect of Lighthouse, and I suppose the "triggers at the end of this turn" effect of Outpost, what new design space is really opened by Durations? (It is really borderline whether Outpost needs to be a Duration card.  Effectively it is left out to remind you, immediately upon finishing your turn, that you should take a new turn.  But come on, no one is about to forget already, and there would be no confusion about how Outpost is intended to function.)

What I stated earlier in the week is that Durations mostly allowed the printing of a bunch of vanilla cards.  Well, after thinking this week, I've noticed that there is something more.  Firstly, I want to propose that the Duration Type is, generally speaking, a nerf.  A penalty.

The most often discussed penalty is that they miss the reshuffle more often.  This is overblown in most decks, but as you get closer to drawing your whole deck, it becomes more severe.  In most decks, Lighthouse is effectively as much economy as Silver due to the "overlap effect".  If you play one Lighthouse per turn, then the overlap of their coins produces $2, so it is like playing a Silver each turn but also protects against attacks.  But if you draw your whole deck, then it is taking two cards in your deck to provide the economic output of just one Silver.  That is, if you'd bought two Silvers rather than two Lighthouses, then once your begin drawing your deck you'd have $4 per turn rather than $2.  Similarly where having purchased 6 Wharves only allows you to play 3 Wharves per turn on average.  This is a nerf relative to Wharves which don't have to stay out, yet still give the next turn effect.

But another nerf is the delayed bonus.  But is this really a penalty?  I want to argue that this is a big part of why all current Duration cards have a weak effect now and a strong effect later.  Consider Wharf.  The "this turn" effect is +2 Cards, +1 Buy.  That would be a $2 card, maybe $3?  At $3, you'd probably buy it often enough to put into an engine for the +buy.  But there is no way it is a $5.  But what about the "next turn" effect?  It is essentially equivalent to playing "+1 Action, +3 Cards, +1 Buy".  That is nuts!  How much would a card like that cost?  Absolutely more than $5.  Probably more than $6.  It is starting to get to the price range of Province, which begins causing issues of its own.  And it just isn't exciting enough to exist at $7 or $8 or whatever price it would need.  The Duration Type is a penalty which allows otherwise too powerful effects to be published.  But the real beauty is that it doesn't feel like a penalty.  Since the payload comes later, it feels like you're getting an awesome bonus.

You buy the Duration cards for their later effect, which in every case is considerably stronger than their immediate effect.  If this lopsidedness were reversed -- if the effect now were better than the effect later -- then it would wouldn't work out as nicely.  If Wharf were $8 card good now, and $2 card good later, well I'd argue that the cost of Wharf would have to be closer to $8 than it is now.  Sure, it will miss the reshuffle more often, but it doesn't have that delayed gratification nerf.  In fact, reshuffles aside, the Duration Type is something of a bonus on this bizzarro Wharf; it would probably have to cost more than $8 rather than $8.  So a "strong now, weak later" Duration card would cost more than the strong effect, rather than less, which does not help to expand the design space.  You'd be better off just printing the strong effect without the tiny later bonus. 

Of course, with the Wharf example, the strong effect leads to drawing your deck, so the reshuffle issue is more acute.  Imagine instead a Duration card which is "Pearl Diver now, Familiar later".  That card would be worth less than Familiar.  On the other hand, "Familiar now, Pearl Diver later" would tend to be worth more than Familiar.  Yet despite being the stronger of the two cards, I think the latter feels less fun.  Man, I already got the payload out of the card.  I'm not that motivated or excited about it staying out an extra turn.  In the former card, I am excited about the card staying out so that you'll get a fist full of Curse in your face next turn!

Now, you could try going a bit further.  Not just "strong now, weak later" but rather "strong now, penalty later".  Now we are weakening the card some.  "Familiar now, I discard down to 3 next turn" is worse than Familiar.  You could try doing something like a front loaded Wharf by saying "+1 Action, +3 Cards, +1 Buy now, I gain a Curse next turn".  But man, why?  The published Wharf feels so much more fun to play!  It's feels like I'm getting a bonus, rather than a penalty.  Now, some of the published Durations are essentially "penalty now, strong later".  Specifically Haven, Outpost, and Tactician.  But even with Tactician's super harsh "discard your hand" penalty, the reward you get later on is so attractive that you hardly mind.  A roughly reversed Tactician, "+2 Actions, +6 Cards, +1 buy now, discard your hand at the start of your next turn" would be much less fun (add in something to prevent playing multiple Tacticians in one turn).

So in summary, the Duration Type allows you print very powerful effects at reasonable costs by causing the effects to be delayed and blind.  This, in my opinion, is one of the key reasons that the published Duration follow the structure of "weak now, strong later".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2013, 01:42:14 pm »
0

I only got to read part of your post just now, SirPeebles, but I will read the rest soon. However, I wanted to say that Outpost is not a Duration to remind you to take another turn. It's a Duration to remind you to only draw 3 cards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2013, 01:45:52 pm »
+1

I only got to read part of your post just now, SirPeebles, but I will read the rest soon. However, I wanted to say that Outpost is not a Duration to remind you to take another turn. It's a Duration to remind you to only draw 3 cards.

I still don't like that as a reason, since that is still something which happens this turn.  Also, you still really don't need a reminder for something which happens less than a second after you would have discarded the Outpost.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2013, 02:07:01 pm »
+6

I only got to read part of your post just now, SirPeebles, but I will read the rest soon. However, I wanted to say that Outpost is not a Duration to remind you to take another turn. It's a Duration to remind you to only draw 3 cards.

I still don't like that as a reason, since that is still something which happens this turn.  Also, you still really don't need a reminder for something which happens less than a second after you would have discarded the Outpost.

It may be the same turn, but it does happen after you would have discarded your Outpost. I'm not saying it's a good reason, but I believe it's the reason Donald gave.

Here's another thought: having Outpost be a Duration reminds you that you're playing an Outpost turn and can't take another Outpost turn after this.
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market squire

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2013, 02:17:45 pm »
0

In fact, reshuffles aside, the Duration Type is something of a bonus on this bizzarro Wharf; it would probably have to cost more than $8 rather than $8.  So a "strong now, weak later" Duration card would cost more than the strong effect, rather than less, which does not help to expand the design space.  You'd be better off just printing the strong effect without the tiny later bonus.

Of course, with the Wharf example, the strong effect leads to drawing your deck, so the reshuffle issue is more acute.  Imagine instead a Duration card which is "Pearl Diver now, Familiar later".  That card would be worth less than Familiar.  On the other hand, "Familiar now, Pearl Diver later" would tend to be worth more than Familiar.  Yet despite being the stronger of the two cards, I think the latter feels less fun.
Thanks for these interesting thougts. I do also prefer "weak now, strong later". But I don't really understand your reason why a card with reversed effects should cost more. Okay "strong now, weak later" is less fun, but why should it be considered weaker?
I think the next turn effect is just naturally better because it may be considered as a cantrip.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2013, 02:41:16 pm »
+5

In fact, reshuffles aside, the Duration Type is something of a bonus on this bizzarro Wharf; it would probably have to cost more than $8 rather than $8.  So a "strong now, weak later" Duration card would cost more than the strong effect, rather than less, which does not help to expand the design space.  You'd be better off just printing the strong effect without the tiny later bonus.

Of course, with the Wharf example, the strong effect leads to drawing your deck, so the reshuffle issue is more acute.  Imagine instead a Duration card which is "Pearl Diver now, Familiar later".  That card would be worth less than Familiar.  On the other hand, "Familiar now, Pearl Diver later" would tend to be worth more than Familiar.  Yet despite being the stronger of the two cards, I think the latter feels less fun.
Thanks for these interesting thougts. I do also prefer "weak now, strong later". But I don't really understand your reason why a card with reversed effects should cost more. Okay "strong now, weak later" is less fun, but why should it be considered weaker?
I think the next turn effect is just naturally better because it may be considered as a cantrip.
The cantrip effect is a mechanical reason why it will naturally be better. On the other hand, that's not entirely preventable (you could stick a cantrip effect onto this turn as well).

But the balance reason (behind the psychological anticipation factor) is 2-fold:

1: Happening later is closer to the end of the game. Early on you are ramping up your deck, so an earlier start accelerates that. There is a reason drawing Chapel on Turn 5 is much worse than Chapel on turn 3 or 4. With Durations, you have the added factor that next turn may never happen, b/c the game will end first. Indeed, the stronger benefit helps you to possibly end the game this turn.

2: Related to this, you have more information about your current turn. Imagine a card that gave you a Remodel effect now and at the start of your next turn. This turn, you know what is in your hand when you play it, so you can decide whether or not it's  worth it for this turn. But next turn? You can't be sure that you will have a good Remodel target next turn. You might draw 5 coppers with no Kingdom $2 on the board, and have to take an Estate. Likewise, imagine some kind of fixed-cost gainer in a deck with Highway. I can play my Highways first this turn, but if the gaining happens at the start of next turn, then I get no benefit from them. You can probably imagine similar concerns about other card effects. Now consider a Merchant Ship that gave $4 this turn vs. one that gave $4 next turn. This turn, I can calculate whether $4 is worth spending an action with my current hand. Next turn? I have no idea whether or not that $4 will be needed or not. So how do I decide whether to play it or another useful action?

I'm not sure if this was what Sir Peebles was was going for, but it's something to keep in mind.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 02:42:42 pm by Just a Rube »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2013, 02:51:31 pm »
0

Just a Rube pretty explained it.  While it is true that a card which states "Now and at the start of your next turn:  +X" will naturally be stronger next turn because of the intrinsic "+1 Card, +1 Action", Donald did partially counteract that with Lighthouse, Fishing Village, and Caravan by giving an additional written "+1 Action" now which is not provided next turn, which makes the effective difference between now and later only a "+1 Card".

Also, it is admittedly a little misleading to say that now is more important than next turn.  Suppose I were comparing the hypothetical Duration Familiar which Curses now to the one Cursing next turn.  The difference really only matters if a) the game ends before my next turn, b) the Curse pile would have emptied before my next turn, or c) my opponent reshuffles between now and next turn.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2013, 05:45:48 pm »
+4

One of the takeaways from this conversation for me is that gaining a card this turn is not sufficiently different from gaining a card next turn to be interesting. For instance, "gain a card costing up to $4" is often going to be identical to "at the start of your next turn, gain a card costing up to $4". The same goes for a card that junks next turn.

This is not to say that gaining a card next turn is always a bad idea. There are ways to fix the problem.

On another note, a card that attacks next turn is a bad idea, since it's hard to track whether each player revealed a Moat when you first played it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 06:25:31 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2013, 05:57:43 pm »
0

Of these three effects, only Lighthouse does the "while in play" effect.  This is really an interesting area to explore for card designs in my opinion, although I did not submit such a card.
;D
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2013, 08:56:34 pm »
0

Barge is another card that won a challenge with another interesting "while in play" effect, except you could benefit for your 2 turns (and it helps with opponents attacks too. And BTW, rules clarifications about a fan card : if you gain a curse with Torturer, can you immediately trash it with Barge ?)
This was one of my favourite winners of the previous challenge (or rather one of the few winners I enjoyed)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2013, 10:05:40 pm »
0

Barge is another card that won a challenge with another interesting "while in play" effect, except you could benefit for your 2 turns (and it helps with opponents attacks too. And BTW, rules clarifications about a fan card : if you gain a curse with Torturer, can you immediately trash it with Barge ?)
This was one of my favourite winners of the previous challenge (or rather one of the few winners I enjoyed)

Barge says: "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand."  So let's see:

Opponent plays Torturer.  You choose to gain the Curse, putting it into your hand.  The question is whether "gain the Curse, putting it into your hand" is one atomic action or two separate actions.  Does that Curse hit your discard pile first?  I think it's one atomic action, but I am not sure.  If it is atomic, then you can trash it with Barge.  If not, then no.  Anyone have a source for this?  FWIW, the official FAQ (as listed on the wiki says that "Gained Curses go to the players' hands rather than their discard piles."  This suggests that the Curse goes directly to hand, which suggests atomicity and that Barge can indeed trash it.




On another note, I actually have a couple of ideas for Seaside.  Nothing super crazy this time... I think.  One is probably pretty decent but I'm almost certain that it's going to be submitted multiple times in multiple incarnations.  I could enter my own version of it, but I think I'll try something more likely to be unique. :P
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2013, 10:17:45 pm »
0

Barge says: "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand."  So let's see:

Opponent plays Torturer.  You choose to gain the Curse, putting it into your hand.  The question is whether "gain the Curse, putting it into your hand" is one atomic action or two separate actions.  Does that Curse hit your discard pile first?  I think it's one atomic action, but I am not sure.  If it is atomic, then you can trash it with Barge.  If not, then no.  Anyone have a source for this?  FWIW, the official FAQ (as listed on the wiki says that "Gained Curses go to the players' hands rather than their discard piles."  This suggests that the Curse goes directly to hand, which suggests atomicity and that Barge can indeed trash it.

It's one atomic action.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 10:21:10 pm by LastFootnote »
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2013, 12:26:39 am »
+1

Barge says: "While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand."  So let's see:

Opponent plays Torturer.  You choose to gain the Curse, putting it into your hand.  The question is whether "gain the Curse, putting it into your hand" is one atomic action or two separate actions.  Does that Curse hit your discard pile first?  I think it's one atomic action, but I am not sure.  If it is atomic, then you can trash it with Barge.  If not, then no.  Anyone have a source for this?  FWIW, the official FAQ (as listed on the wiki says that "Gained Curses go to the players' hands rather than their discard piles."  This suggests that the Curse goes directly to hand, which suggests atomicity and that Barge can indeed trash it.

It's one atomic action.

This is explicitly confirmed in the Dark Ages rules under the "no visiting" rule.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2013, 03:21:18 am »
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I intended for torturer's curse to be Trashable with Barge's on play. Glad you enjoyed the card ChocophileBenj; if it's a bit too much of a must buy more recent incarnations have a compulsory chancellor effect on play (so it's a duration that always msises the reshuffle; another idea I'd like to see explored)

Not going to resubmit it though; this is a good chance to get feedback on a card so I'm trying something extremely different. Maybe next Seaside competition.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2013, 10:05:16 am »
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Honestly, I hoping that the submitted cards for this challenge inspire me to make a good Seaside card for the next Seaside round. I had a lot of trouble designing a card for this challenge and I don't expect my card to get too far.

On the topic of duration cards, I think their best features are the fun factor and nerf otherwise powerful effects.
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