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Author Topic: Request: Rogue  (Read 20883 times)

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AHoppy

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Request: Rogue
« on: September 24, 2013, 05:15:59 am »
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So, I did a quick search and could not find an article on rogue.  I'd be curious to see what the pros say about it because from my experience, it's not a good card.  I have never used it effectively, and I have never had it used effectively against me, so I'm not sure what it requires to work effectively.  From what I can think of, rogue wants you to be able to play it a lot, depending on what you want it to do.  It can work like knights, but that only works on every other play (assuming only 2p and no other trashers.)  So if you want it to just attack, it's much worse than knights.  And if you want to use it to grab things from the trash, there has to be things there that you want to steal and since you aren't in control of what gets trashed, it doesn't seem that handy for that either.  So does any one have any example games of where rogue shined or was an integral piece in their strategy?  Or does someone have an article on rogue that I have missed?  Thanks!

brokoli

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 05:52:22 am »
+1

Yes, Rogue is not very good. But I like this card so much that I always want to have one  ;D
I've already used it effectively :
- It's a very strong card in a duke mirror
- It's great with mining village. Play Mining village, trash it, play rogue, gain it. If you have a good source of draw, you can even draw the mining village already played. Also, not bad with other cards that self-trash (feast, death cart, pillage...), but only if you really want to gain them again.
- Very nice with Highway too. Can trash provinces. But be careful, because you don't want to play more than 2 highways, and if your opponent has a deck full of silver or other $3-$4 cards, he is well defended.
- Synergize with TfB. Play apprentice, trash gold, play rogue, gain gold...

Overall, Rogue is one of those cards that really depends on the opponent's deck. Must be taken into account that sometimes, it will simply never attack because there are bad cards in the trash pile. In this case, if you want to have control over Rogue you have to trash your own good cards, and that's rarely the kind of things you want to do (only with Tfb again). Also, if the opponent has a rogue as well, he can gain the cards you have trashed...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 05:55:24 am by brokoli »
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 08:04:00 am »
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- It's great with mining village. Play Mining village, trash it, play rogue, gain it.
This move is like having 2 silvers and +card. That's nice, but not nice enough to be a game-warping strategy.

Nevertheless, I agree that Rogue is strong if there will probably be good cards in the trash.
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hsiale

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 08:09:05 am »
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It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
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DG

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 08:31:59 am »
+7

Rogue is primarily a card gainer that attacks if there is nothing to gain. A 5 cost workshop that gives +2 coins doesn't seem so bad perhaps, even if you don't have the full choice of cards? The main trap with the rogue is to buy it as an attack but find yourself only gaining poor cards that your opponent has trashed out. A good opponent may even be able to poison the trash pile once they see you have rogues.

So as a card gainer you're looking to gain kingdom cards that would suit a smuggler such as alternate vp cards, good non-terminal actions, gold. If can trash them from your opponent's deck first then that's a good bonus. You can of course plan to trash cards from your deck and gain them back and this sets up some good combinations. Highways and bridges can let you gain/attack bigger cards of course. Rogues can be good defense against trashing attacks such as knights.

Multiplayer rogues are problematic as you tend to be at the mercy of the draws. It's a lot harder to manipulate the trash pile if there are three or four decks feeding it. Also, if you play a rogue and trash a duchy it's not much use if another player gains it from the trash later.
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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 08:37:26 am »
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It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.
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ednever

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 09:48:55 am »
+2

It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.

Mining Vilage: +1 card, +2 actions, +$2, trash
Rogue: +$2, gain MV

Total if it was on one card:
+1 card, -1 card = no card effect
+2 actions, - 1 action = +1 action
+$2 +$2 = +$4
Lose MV, gain MV = no effect

So if it appeared on one card it would be:
+1 action, +$4 (for a card cost of $9 and an extra buy)

Can we do better with $9 and two buys? What about this:
Border Village, Mandarin, tournament
+2 actions, +1 action -2 actions = +1 action
+1 card, +1 card, -1 card, -2 cards = -1 card
+$3, +$1 = +$4

And it takes $10 to get, not $9.

Another attempt:
BV, market, duchess (cost: $8)
Actions: +2, +1, -2 = +1
Cards: +1, +1, -2 = 0
$: +1, +2 = +$3

So $1 cheaper, but provides +$3 instead of +$4.


So I think there is a synergy from Rogue+MV. It's not huge though, but it might be the cheapest way to produce that exact effect from a $9 two-card combo.

Ed



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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 10:45:08 am »
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It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.

Mining Vilage: +1 card, +2 actions, +$2, trash
Rogue: +$2, gain MV

Total if it was on one card:
+1 card, -1 card = no card effect
+2 actions, - 1 action = +1 action
+$2 +$2 = +$4
Lose MV, gain MV = no effect

So if it appeared on one card it would be:
+1 action, +$4 (for a card cost of $9 and an extra buy)

Can we do better with $9 and two buys? What about this:
Border Village, Mandarin, tournament
+2 actions, +1 action -2 actions = +1 action
+1 card, +1 card, -1 card, -2 cards = -1 card
+$3, +$1 = +$4

And it takes $10 to get, not $9.

Another attempt:
BV, market, duchess (cost: $8)
Actions: +2, +1, -2 = +1
Cards: +1, +1, -2 = 0
$: +1, +2 = +$3

So $1 cheaper, but provides +$3 instead of +$4.


So I think there is a synergy from Rogue+MV. It's not huge though, but it might be the cheapest way to produce that exact effect from a $9 two-card combo.

Ed
Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher (and to a lesser extent, any card that trashes other cards that you still want back in your deck, such as Procession). My favorite is Pillage.
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flies

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 10:56:59 am »
+1

Rogue is primarily a card gainer that attacks if there is nothing to gain. A 5 cost workshop that gives +2 coins doesn't seem so bad perhaps, even if you don't have the full choice of cards? The main trap with the rogue is to buy it as an attack but find yourself only gaining poor cards that your opponent has trashed out.

It's a very weak attack and a situationally useful gainer.
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blueblimp

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 11:56:59 am »
+2

Can we do better with $9 and two buys?
Grand Market plus Silver. To be fair, that needs to be bought without copper in play.

Grand Market: +1 action, +1 card, +$2, +1 buy
Silver: +1 action, +$2

So one-card total is: +1 action, +$4, +1 buy.

Another example that gets the same effect as Rogue+MV but only costs $8 and 2 buys is Throne Room Conspirator, even assuming they are the first actions you play that turn.

First play of Conspirator: +1 action (effectively), +$2
Second play of Conspirator: +1 action, +1 card, +$2

For one-card total of: +1 action, +$4.
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Schneau

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 12:04:33 pm »
+1

Can we do better with $9 and two buys?

Am I missing something, or is Gold+Silver basically +1 Action, +$5, plus and minus some edge cases?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 12:13:24 pm »
+4

Border Village, Trade Route, Market gets +1 Action, +$4, +1 Buy if estate, duchy, and province are taken.

Gold and silver in one card would be +1 Action, +$5, -1 Card.

But platinum/nothing gets you +1 Action, +$5.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:15:23 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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AJD

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 12:20:14 pm »
+2

Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher

(except Embargo)
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brokoli

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 07:22:04 pm »
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Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher
(except Embargo)
Rogue is not that good with hermit too. Usually, there is a time you simply don't want hermit in your deck anymore, so you want it trashed once and for all.
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DG

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 09:02:48 pm »
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Rogue and feast can fail badly too.
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blueblimp

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 10:49:48 pm »
+1

Rogue seems to me similar to Jester, in that the main attraction of the card is that it's a terminal Silver that can gain you cards your opponent has, that has a less-good attack attached too. (Jester is not-so-great as a junker, and Rogue is not-so-great as a trash attack.) I haven't used it a lot but it feels very slow if it's the only card trashing high-value cards, because it needs at least two plays before you gain anything, and the attack can often whiff or hit something not very interesting (like Silver, in which case the next Rogue play is basically an Explorer--not terrible, but not too exciting either).

Like other trash attacks, it seems strongest vs thinned decks, and like Jester, it seems strongest in mirror strategies, so that you're not forced to gain cards that you don't really want. Even more than Jester, Rogue seems most attractive in engines (to mitigate how slow it is), because it can keep stealing engine components even when the pile empties. And like Jester, the attack can be brutal if you're doing multiple plays per turn.

So yeah, so far I consider it an okay-but-not-great $5 attack, like Jester. But I haven't played with it all that much so I'm far from sure.
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ashersky

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:21 am »
+6

It looks like no one has mentioned Rebuild yet.  Seems like that's where you want to either trash oppenent's Duchy/Rebuilds or gain either of those from the trash.

Plus, you can play it after your Rebuild trashes a Duchy to regain it.
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RTT

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:28 am »
+5

I bought a rogue once to steal the golds from my opponent. to bad that he gained the golds from treassure Map :(
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AHoppy

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 03:07:28 am »
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It looks like no one has mentioned Rebuild yet.  Seems like that's where you want to either trash oppenent's Duchy/Rebuilds or gain either of those from the trash.

Plus, you can play it after your Rebuild trashes a Duchy to regain it.
Oooh, I didn't think of that.  This is probably the first instance I've read where I would actively pursue rogue, I would probably screw up the other ways and it still would feel too slow.  +1 for you.

Warfreak2

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 05:48:21 am »
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Rogue is one of the better terminal Silvers for a Rebuild deck - it costs $5, so you always want to buy Rebuild over it, but you prefer at least the first Rogue over Duchy simply because you get the Duchy when you play it the first time. You'll never attack your opponent with it, though - the trash will always have Duchies.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 02:16:42 pm »
+2

I played a fun game once where we were both trashing and gaining each others villages. It was interesting because usually winning the village split is a big deal, but with Rogue, you might initially win it but then actually end up with less villages at some point...

I think its main use is with trash-for-benefit cards, because then you can be assured of something good to gain.
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flies

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2013, 03:04:43 pm »
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I think its main use is with trash-for-benefit cards, because then you can be assured of something good to gain.
Do you think that tfb is a better reason to get a rogue than (non-rogue) trashing attacks?  I'd guess that trashing attacks are better in general cuz you're less likely to want to trash key cards with tfb (unless you're gaining it right back yourself).
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Warfreak2

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 05:06:22 am »
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TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.
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flies

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 11:14:11 am »
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TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.
Good point.  I think my guess was predicated on gaining engine parts.  Rogue would be better for that with trashing attacks, but probably unreliably, whereas if you're trashing stuff that you want back to trash again, then you have a more reliable plan.  I mean, in a knights game with rogue, you may want to gain stuff out of the trash just to keep your opponents from getting it, which is a totally different motivation.

(PS: have you noticed that when the trash is super full, goko makes it nigh impossible to pick a card to gain?  They're not sorted and they're all displayed at once instead of being broken out the way your discard pile is for hermit/scavenger/what have you.)
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soulnet

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 11:22:34 am »
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TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.

Aprrentice a Gold and Rogue it back from the trash is a 3-card "Combo" that is terminal and gives only
+3 Cards (6-3)
-$1 (you loose $3 from the Gold, unless you draw it back).

So worst than a Hunting Grounds, and much harder to get. Of course, it is way more flexible, but still, not impressive.
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