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Author Topic: Request: Rogue  (Read 20888 times)

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AHoppy

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Request: Rogue
« on: September 24, 2013, 05:15:59 am »
0

So, I did a quick search and could not find an article on rogue.  I'd be curious to see what the pros say about it because from my experience, it's not a good card.  I have never used it effectively, and I have never had it used effectively against me, so I'm not sure what it requires to work effectively.  From what I can think of, rogue wants you to be able to play it a lot, depending on what you want it to do.  It can work like knights, but that only works on every other play (assuming only 2p and no other trashers.)  So if you want it to just attack, it's much worse than knights.  And if you want to use it to grab things from the trash, there has to be things there that you want to steal and since you aren't in control of what gets trashed, it doesn't seem that handy for that either.  So does any one have any example games of where rogue shined or was an integral piece in their strategy?  Or does someone have an article on rogue that I have missed?  Thanks!

brokoli

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 05:52:22 am »
+1

Yes, Rogue is not very good. But I like this card so much that I always want to have one  ;D
I've already used it effectively :
- It's a very strong card in a duke mirror
- It's great with mining village. Play Mining village, trash it, play rogue, gain it. If you have a good source of draw, you can even draw the mining village already played. Also, not bad with other cards that self-trash (feast, death cart, pillage...), but only if you really want to gain them again.
- Very nice with Highway too. Can trash provinces. But be careful, because you don't want to play more than 2 highways, and if your opponent has a deck full of silver or other $3-$4 cards, he is well defended.
- Synergize with TfB. Play apprentice, trash gold, play rogue, gain gold...

Overall, Rogue is one of those cards that really depends on the opponent's deck. Must be taken into account that sometimes, it will simply never attack because there are bad cards in the trash pile. In this case, if you want to have control over Rogue you have to trash your own good cards, and that's rarely the kind of things you want to do (only with Tfb again). Also, if the opponent has a rogue as well, he can gain the cards you have trashed...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 05:55:24 am by brokoli »
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 08:04:00 am »
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- It's great with mining village. Play Mining village, trash it, play rogue, gain it.
This move is like having 2 silvers and +card. That's nice, but not nice enough to be a game-warping strategy.

Nevertheless, I agree that Rogue is strong if there will probably be good cards in the trash.
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hsiale

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 08:09:05 am »
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It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
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DG

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 08:31:59 am »
+7

Rogue is primarily a card gainer that attacks if there is nothing to gain. A 5 cost workshop that gives +2 coins doesn't seem so bad perhaps, even if you don't have the full choice of cards? The main trap with the rogue is to buy it as an attack but find yourself only gaining poor cards that your opponent has trashed out. A good opponent may even be able to poison the trash pile once they see you have rogues.

So as a card gainer you're looking to gain kingdom cards that would suit a smuggler such as alternate vp cards, good non-terminal actions, gold. If can trash them from your opponent's deck first then that's a good bonus. You can of course plan to trash cards from your deck and gain them back and this sets up some good combinations. Highways and bridges can let you gain/attack bigger cards of course. Rogues can be good defense against trashing attacks such as knights.

Multiplayer rogues are problematic as you tend to be at the mercy of the draws. It's a lot harder to manipulate the trash pile if there are three or four decks feeding it. Also, if you play a rogue and trash a duchy it's not much use if another player gains it from the trash later.
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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 08:37:26 am »
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It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.
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ednever

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 09:48:55 am »
+2

It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.

Mining Vilage: +1 card, +2 actions, +$2, trash
Rogue: +$2, gain MV

Total if it was on one card:
+1 card, -1 card = no card effect
+2 actions, - 1 action = +1 action
+$2 +$2 = +$4
Lose MV, gain MV = no effect

So if it appeared on one card it would be:
+1 action, +$4 (for a card cost of $9 and an extra buy)

Can we do better with $9 and two buys? What about this:
Border Village, Mandarin, tournament
+2 actions, +1 action -2 actions = +1 action
+1 card, +1 card, -1 card, -2 cards = -1 card
+$3, +$1 = +$4

And it takes $10 to get, not $9.

Another attempt:
BV, market, duchess (cost: $8)
Actions: +2, +1, -2 = +1
Cards: +1, +1, -2 = 0
$: +1, +2 = +$3

So $1 cheaper, but provides +$3 instead of +$4.


So I think there is a synergy from Rogue+MV. It's not huge though, but it might be the cheapest way to produce that exact effect from a $9 two-card combo.

Ed



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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 10:45:08 am »
0

It's a 2-card combo that, after you play both cards, results in +1 Action, +$4. Quite powerful effect, definitely too strong to appear on a single card. I played this once and it worked really well.
Actually just $4,  since Mining Village gives +2 Actions and playing MV and Rogue costs 2 Actions.

Mining Vilage: +1 card, +2 actions, +$2, trash
Rogue: +$2, gain MV

Total if it was on one card:
+1 card, -1 card = no card effect
+2 actions, - 1 action = +1 action
+$2 +$2 = +$4
Lose MV, gain MV = no effect

So if it appeared on one card it would be:
+1 action, +$4 (for a card cost of $9 and an extra buy)

Can we do better with $9 and two buys? What about this:
Border Village, Mandarin, tournament
+2 actions, +1 action -2 actions = +1 action
+1 card, +1 card, -1 card, -2 cards = -1 card
+$3, +$1 = +$4

And it takes $10 to get, not $9.

Another attempt:
BV, market, duchess (cost: $8)
Actions: +2, +1, -2 = +1
Cards: +1, +1, -2 = 0
$: +1, +2 = +$3

So $1 cheaper, but provides +$3 instead of +$4.


So I think there is a synergy from Rogue+MV. It's not huge though, but it might be the cheapest way to produce that exact effect from a $9 two-card combo.

Ed
Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher (and to a lesser extent, any card that trashes other cards that you still want back in your deck, such as Procession). My favorite is Pillage.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 10:56:59 am »
+1

Rogue is primarily a card gainer that attacks if there is nothing to gain. A 5 cost workshop that gives +2 coins doesn't seem so bad perhaps, even if you don't have the full choice of cards? The main trap with the rogue is to buy it as an attack but find yourself only gaining poor cards that your opponent has trashed out.

It's a very weak attack and a situationally useful gainer.
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blueblimp

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 11:56:59 am »
+2

Can we do better with $9 and two buys?
Grand Market plus Silver. To be fair, that needs to be bought without copper in play.

Grand Market: +1 action, +1 card, +$2, +1 buy
Silver: +1 action, +$2

So one-card total is: +1 action, +$4, +1 buy.

Another example that gets the same effect as Rogue+MV but only costs $8 and 2 buys is Throne Room Conspirator, even assuming they are the first actions you play that turn.

First play of Conspirator: +1 action (effectively), +$2
Second play of Conspirator: +1 action, +1 card, +$2

For one-card total of: +1 action, +$4.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 12:04:33 pm »
+1

Can we do better with $9 and two buys?

Am I missing something, or is Gold+Silver basically +1 Action, +$5, plus and minus some edge cases?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 12:13:24 pm »
+4

Border Village, Trade Route, Market gets +1 Action, +$4, +1 Buy if estate, duchy, and province are taken.

Gold and silver in one card would be +1 Action, +$5, -1 Card.

But platinum/nothing gets you +1 Action, +$5.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:15:23 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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AJD

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 12:20:14 pm »
+2

Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher

(except Embargo)
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brokoli

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 07:22:04 pm »
0

Also, there is synergy between Rogue and any self-trasher
(except Embargo)
Rogue is not that good with hermit too. Usually, there is a time you simply don't want hermit in your deck anymore, so you want it trashed once and for all.
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DG

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 09:02:48 pm »
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Rogue and feast can fail badly too.
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blueblimp

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 10:49:48 pm »
+1

Rogue seems to me similar to Jester, in that the main attraction of the card is that it's a terminal Silver that can gain you cards your opponent has, that has a less-good attack attached too. (Jester is not-so-great as a junker, and Rogue is not-so-great as a trash attack.) I haven't used it a lot but it feels very slow if it's the only card trashing high-value cards, because it needs at least two plays before you gain anything, and the attack can often whiff or hit something not very interesting (like Silver, in which case the next Rogue play is basically an Explorer--not terrible, but not too exciting either).

Like other trash attacks, it seems strongest vs thinned decks, and like Jester, it seems strongest in mirror strategies, so that you're not forced to gain cards that you don't really want. Even more than Jester, Rogue seems most attractive in engines (to mitigate how slow it is), because it can keep stealing engine components even when the pile empties. And like Jester, the attack can be brutal if you're doing multiple plays per turn.

So yeah, so far I consider it an okay-but-not-great $5 attack, like Jester. But I haven't played with it all that much so I'm far from sure.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:21 am »
+6

It looks like no one has mentioned Rebuild yet.  Seems like that's where you want to either trash oppenent's Duchy/Rebuilds or gain either of those from the trash.

Plus, you can play it after your Rebuild trashes a Duchy to regain it.
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RTT

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:28 am »
+5

I bought a rogue once to steal the golds from my opponent. to bad that he gained the golds from treassure Map :(
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AHoppy

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 03:07:28 am »
0

It looks like no one has mentioned Rebuild yet.  Seems like that's where you want to either trash oppenent's Duchy/Rebuilds or gain either of those from the trash.

Plus, you can play it after your Rebuild trashes a Duchy to regain it.
Oooh, I didn't think of that.  This is probably the first instance I've read where I would actively pursue rogue, I would probably screw up the other ways and it still would feel too slow.  +1 for you.

Warfreak2

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 05:48:21 am »
0

Rogue is one of the better terminal Silvers for a Rebuild deck - it costs $5, so you always want to buy Rebuild over it, but you prefer at least the first Rogue over Duchy simply because you get the Duchy when you play it the first time. You'll never attack your opponent with it, though - the trash will always have Duchies.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 02:16:42 pm »
+2

I played a fun game once where we were both trashing and gaining each others villages. It was interesting because usually winning the village split is a big deal, but with Rogue, you might initially win it but then actually end up with less villages at some point...

I think its main use is with trash-for-benefit cards, because then you can be assured of something good to gain.
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flies

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2013, 03:04:43 pm »
0

I think its main use is with trash-for-benefit cards, because then you can be assured of something good to gain.
Do you think that tfb is a better reason to get a rogue than (non-rogue) trashing attacks?  I'd guess that trashing attacks are better in general cuz you're less likely to want to trash key cards with tfb (unless you're gaining it right back yourself).
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 05:06:22 am »
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TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 11:14:11 am »
0

TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.
Good point.  I think my guess was predicated on gaining engine parts.  Rogue would be better for that with trashing attacks, but probably unreliably, whereas if you're trashing stuff that you want back to trash again, then you have a more reliable plan.  I mean, in a knights game with rogue, you may want to gain stuff out of the trash just to keep your opponents from getting it, which is a totally different motivation.

(PS: have you noticed that when the trash is super full, goko makes it nigh impossible to pick a card to gain?  They're not sorted and they're all displayed at once instead of being broken out the way your discard pile is for hermit/scavenger/what have you.)
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soulnet

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 11:22:34 am »
0

TfB like Bishop or Apprentice work best when there's a way of gaining expensive cards for fuel. Rogue can gain Golds back from the trash - you aren't trashing your key cards, normally just Gold.

Aprrentice a Gold and Rogue it back from the trash is a 3-card "Combo" that is terminal and gives only
+3 Cards (6-3)
-$1 (you loose $3 from the Gold, unless you draw it back).

So worst than a Hunting Grounds, and much harder to get. Of course, it is way more flexible, but still, not impressive.
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DG

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 11:49:13 am »
+2

Quote
Aprrentice a Gold and Rogue it back from the trash is a 3-card "Combo" that is terminal and gives only
+3 Cards (6-3)
-$1 (you loose $3 from the Gold, unless you draw it back).

You've double counted the lost gold as -1 card and -3 coins.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2013, 04:24:03 pm »
0

Apprentice/Rogue isn't much of a combo; more of a synergy. Anyway, Gold is always available so it's a bit strange to call it a three-card combo.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 05:02:40 pm »
0

Apprentice/Rogue isn't much of a combo; more of a synergy. Anyway, Gold is always available so it's a bit strange to call it a three-card combo.

I meant it in the sense that you need to get 3 cards in your hand in the appropiate time. I guess finding Rogue after drawing with Apprentice is not that difficult.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 05:44:31 pm »
0

other gold-gainers are probably better, in any case.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2013, 06:03:10 pm »
0

Given that Rogue is in the kingdom, though, Rogue has the advantage of not leaving Golds in the trash for your opponent to gain.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2013, 06:39:20 pm »
0

Here's a log where I think Rogue was important

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130929/log.515524b2e4b0764388148f53.1380489553657.txt

Ghost Ship slows down the game alot. There's Lookout for trashing and Ironmongers for +Action, both of which semi-counter Ghost Ship. Rogue is important both as a source of money and as a way to contest Ironmongers after they run out. This log also shows a use for Graverobber over Rogue, or in particular the trashing gives Mike Harris a couple Provinces that give the win.

Rogue isn't a Knight, it's supposed to be a delayed card stealer, so you ideally need similar decks or at least lots of +Actions to make it work right.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2013, 11:41:24 pm »
+3

I recently had a game where my opponent created an engine out of Wandering Minstrels and Rogues. I was shocked at how quickly it tore my deck apart. Rogue is not Saboteur! You can play three of them in a turn and still buy something awesome.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 07:11:13 am »
0

A few important things I believe to note on Rogue :

* In a slog, it is plain out useless (you get way too many -$3 cards that do nothing).
* The other way around - when the opponent is going for rush (i.e. heavy trashing happening), Rogue is very helpful.
* Rebuild - rogue is indeed a great combination - no need to be buying those extra duchies, just pick them up again from the trash.
* Feast and Rogue can be good or bad, depending on the situation. If you've got an engine going, Rogue can come in handy to pick up the feast and consequently pick up a new (non-terminal) engine part again. If the deck is full of terminals, it would be best to ignore the Rogue if Feast was played ...


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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 02:10:29 pm »
0

Rogue is a weird card that's almost a combination of two other weird cards - Dame Sylvia and Graverobber. When it attacks, Rogue plays exactly like Dame Sylvia (except it can't get trashed itself). When it doesn't attack, it plays like a weak Graverobber, in that it doesn't top-deck, and you have no in-hand option.

Dame Sylvia is usually a pretty decent card; the +$2 means it won't slow down your economy much. The attack is worthwhile if you can actually hit good cards with it. So here, Rogue synergizes with deck-inspection much like the knights do.

The limited Graverobber option can be useful, but as has been pointed out, only if there's good cards in the trash. Rogue is helped by trash-for-benefit, which can put cards in the $3 to $6 range in the trash for your taking. Keep in mind that Rogue is likely more often a Graverobber than a Dame Sylvia - it only attacks if there are NO cards between $3 and $6 in the trash. Every successful Rogue attack is followed by a non-attack play (unless there's an actual Graverobber in play, or cost-reduction shenanigans), and if there's other trashers on the board, the trash will fill up even faster than you can empty it.

All in all, I think Rogue plays like the other deck-destruction cards - worthwhile if you can play them often and consistently. Other attacks that let you "steal" cards (Noble Brigand, Theif) do so in one swift play, but it take two Rogues to successfully convert an opponent's card - a bit slow if you have grand ideas of stealing your opponent's deck.
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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 06:36:02 pm »
+2

When it doesn't attack, it plays like a weak Graverobber, in that it doesn't top-deck, and you have no in-hand option.
I'd argue that +$2 is stronger than topdecking the card most of the time.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2013, 10:44:53 am »
0

When it doesn't attack, it plays like a weak Graverobber, in that it doesn't top-deck, and you have no in-hand option.
I'd argue that +$2 is stronger than topdecking the card most of the time.

I agree with Awaclus. Topdecking doesn't give a supplementary card, it just replaces an average card. The difference between a topdecked card gained by Graverobber -worth 3$ to 6$- and an average card is almost never higher than $2. Furthermore, +$2 right now is stronger than in the next move.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2013, 10:49:08 am »
+2

I think, if you only look at the average strength of a card, Rogue would be pretty decent. Unfortunately, the unreliability is sometimes painful.
Btw, Tribute and Steward also show that average power is not a very good criterium. Tribute would be a Top-Card, Steward would be simply awful.
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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2013, 10:56:20 am »
0

Rogue is one of the better terminal Silvers for a Rebuild deck - it costs $5, so you always want to buy Rebuild over it, but you prefer at least the first Rogue over Duchy simply because you get the Duchy when you play it the first time. You'll never attack your opponent with it, though - the trash will always have Duchies.

Maybe, my straregy in a Rebuild game is always to choke off the supply of Duchies. If the Duchy keeps coming from the Trash pile instead of supply the strategy fails to prevent the opponent from doing the same.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 11:30:45 am »
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Quote
The difference between a topdecked card gained by Graverobber -worth 3$ to 6$- and an average card is almost never higher than $2.

I disagree with that. With no trashing, in most games I'd say at least 1/3 of your deck is usually copper/estate. The difference between a topdecked card and what's already on top is frequently much more than $2.  At any rate, you're probably right that the +$2 is worth more than topdecking, but I'm not totally sure. By the time you're gaining good cards out of the trash, you should be getting $4-$5 each turn anyway, so the +$2 may not be critical at that point. I think that +$1 would be worse than topdecking the gained card, so it makes me wonder about +$2. The key with topdecking is that you don't replace anything, you (possibly) get an extra play out of the gained card before the shuffle. Especially important in large decks and slow games.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2013, 09:33:35 am »
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The key with topdecking is that you don't replace anything,

I don't understand this. Instead of drawing 5 cards, say ABCDE, you will draw the topdecked card plus ABCD. Thus, you have replaced the fifth card (E) with the topdecked card, right?

To compare them:

1.) In general, E has an average value above 1$ (Copper)
2.) Cards gained by Graverobber/Rogue virtually never have an average value beyond 3$ (Gold)
3.) Thus, the average difference between a topdecked card and the replaced one is almost never above 3$-1$ = 2$.

Which of these points don't you agree with, BadAssMutha?


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Awaclus

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2013, 09:42:57 am »
0

Quote
The difference between a topdecked card gained by Graverobber -worth 3$ to 6$- and an average card is almost never higher than $2.

I disagree with that. With no trashing, in most games I'd say at least 1/3 of your deck is usually copper/estate. The difference between a topdecked card and what's already on top is frequently much more than $2.  At any rate, you're probably right that the +$2 is worth more than topdecking, but I'm not totally sure. By the time you're gaining good cards out of the trash, you should be getting $4-$5 each turn anyway, so the +$2 may not be critical at that point. I think that +$1 would be worse than topdecking the gained card, so it makes me wonder about +$2. The key with topdecking is that you don't replace anything, you (possibly) get an extra play out of the gained card before the shuffle. Especially important in large decks and slow games.
How often do you avoid playing Watchtower just to have it in your hand so that you can reveal it for topdecking your bought card? Considering that Watchtower draws actions dead a lot of time, it's not that much better than just plain +$2, so it's a pretty good comparison.
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BadAssMutha

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2013, 10:24:16 am »
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Quote
I don't understand this. Instead of drawing 5 cards, say ABCDE, you will draw the topdecked card plus ABCD. Thus, you have replaced the fifth card (E) with the topdecked card, right?

To compare them:

1.) In general, E has an average value above 1$ (Copper)
2.) Cards gained by Graverobber/Rogue virtually never have an average value beyond 3$ (Gold)
3.) Thus, the average difference between a topdecked card and the replaced one is almost never above 3$-1$ = 2$.

Which of these points don't you agree with, BadAssMutha?

Whoops, I thought we were talking about cost of the card, not the $ it gives you (topdecking a $3-$6 card vs. a $0 cost copper). I see now, Rogue can get you $2 now vs. Graverobber topdecking an extra $1 or so to spend next turn. At any rate, topdecking is a little different than just replacing the top card, which is what Sea Hag does. Topdecking any cantrip or Lab variant gives you the same 5 card hand you would have had anyway, plus a bonus (extra card, cash, whatever). I look at gained cards in terms of how many plays per shuffle I can get - topdecking boosts that number a little. Sometimes an extra action play can make all the difference.

After thinking about it some more, I see that topdecking does have its limits. You only get one extra play out of the topdecked card. Topdecking at the end of a shuffle may not even have any effect (you could have drawn that card anyway).

Quote
How often do you avoid playing Watchtower just to have it in your hand so that you can reveal it for topdecking your bought card? Considering that Watchtower draws actions dead a lot of time, it's not that much better than just plain +$2, so it's a pretty good comparison.

Quite often. If I can already buy what I need, certainly. Sometimes I'll hang onto it with $4 if it's only going to draw one card. Like I said, I think I'd "pay" $1 for topdecking, but $2 might be too much. I guess this is why Royal Seal works as almost a Gold with  -$1 and topdecking. Rogue's +$2 > Graverobber's topdecking.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2013, 02:23:23 am »
+2

The existence of Royal Seal makes me think that topdecking is worth less than 1$ (in average). Otherwise its added benefits would be 3$, and it should cost 6$ like gold does. But it costs 5$, and it even isn't a very popular $5 card.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 08:28:07 am by terminalCopper »
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dondon151

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2013, 06:09:49 pm »
+2

You have to remember, though, that because Royal Seal is a Treasure card, its topdecking effect is limited to the buy phase (with the exception of a combo with Black Market). I would say that Watchtower's topdecking is more valuable than Royal Seal's topdecking, even though they're worded in much the same way.
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SCSN

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Re: Request: Rogue
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2013, 06:24:19 pm »
+1

You have to remember, though, that because Royal Seal is a Treasure card, its topdecking effect is limited to the buy phase (with the exception of a combo with Black Market). I would say that Watchtower's topdecking is more valuable than Royal Seal's topdecking, even though they're worded in much the same way.

This.

The value of an effect cannot be evaluated independent from the card that features it and the context in which it will be used. You can't just say things like "a +buy is worth X"; adding a +buy to Bank would make the card a lot stronger, while adding it to Remake would be quite inconsequential.
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