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[Titandrake]

Taxman.

I like this card. I really want this card to be good. But I'm pretty certain it's not. I haven't played many games where I picked up Taxman yet, certainly not enough for an article, but I've thought about it a bit and I figure I should put stream of consciousness stuff out here, to at least start a conversation.

Why is Taxman underwhelming?
Fundamentally, Taxman does almost nothing for you on your own turn. The immediate comparison is to Cutpurse. While Taxman gains you a Silver on top and trashes a Copper, Cutpurse gives you the +$2 right then, and that's a lot stronger, especially because Taxman hurts your hand, now. Because of this, a Taxman opening is, at least, pretty bad. But the point of Taxman is to upgrade your Treasures into better ones, so you want Taxman early to give a better shot of colliding with your Treasures. It's a card you both want and don't want early, and that makes it awkward to ever justify picking up; by the time you'd want it, you probably have $5+ and there's something better.

What are good situations to buy Taxman?
Underwhelming cards need underwhelming boards. Something slow, with not much going on. Something that lets you pick up Taxman in the opening, to give you time to buy Treasures worth Taxmanning and use the treasure you gain. Discarding a Copper is good and all, but it's really not worth it, not for a $4 Action. You want to be hitting Silvers as much as you can, especially because hitting a Silver discard is so strong. It's almost a Militia.

Quantity Matters
To me, Taxman compares most closely with Noble Brigand. Both act as ways to counter primarily money based strategies, both are very underwhelming the turn you play them, and both need many plays in order to be useful. So, if you do want Taxman, my guess is you don't want just 1 or 2. You want something like 4 or 5, something that lets you play Taxman every turn. Playing an attack every turn hurts no matter what that attack is, and given that Taxman slows down your shuffles, you probably need to have lots of copies, rather than 1 copy + an engine, to make it work nicely.

The "Next Turn" Counter
Just a small note; Taxman makes your current turn worse for your next turn being better. So it might be a decent counter to discard attacks. Topdeck something good, make your current turn awful. My guess is that this "counter" is actually awful, but food for thought.

Kingdom Treasure Interactions
It's worth thinking through what Kingdom Treasures could work well with Taxman. Potion could help; Taxman gives a way to get a Potion, now, if you really need it. Quarry doesn't feel synergistic.

Loan is interesting in that you can trash Coppers, then Taxman the Loan into a Gold, but Loan also discards the treasure you topdeck with Taxman, so it's an overall wash.

Hoard? Well, maybe. But you aren't Taxmanning those Gold you're gaining, so eh, not the best.

Harem? Seems pretty nice actually, just as a way to get VP now.

Plat? Mine is better with Plat out, Taxman is also better, not much else to say.

Talisman? Actually, Talisman gives a way to get lots of Taxmen/Silver, and then you can turn Talisman into a Gold when you don't need it. Might be worth exploring. (Speaking of which, Explorer/Taxman? Probably the best 2-terminal-in-deck-that-probably-has-no-villages combo yet, besides Chancellor/Counting House.)

Masterpiece. Again, an interesting combo. Overpay, get lots of Silvers, turn the Masterpiece into Gold. Again, this is all assuming Taxman on $3 cost is the ideal play for Taxman.

Venture. The card that inspired all of these musings. Taxman + Venture sounds very interesting. Taxman increases your average treasure quality, it gives a way to gain more Ventures than usual, and you can play Venture to hit your topdecked treasure, so Taxman doesn't kill your current turn as horribly. So mini-challenge: try playing, or simulating, Taxman-Venture, tell me what you get.

The tl;dr
Taxman is pretty bad.
If you never buy Taxman, you probably aren't missing much.
If you do buy it, make sure you can play it every turn, or it's likely a waste.
Even in the niche it fills, it's still not very strong.
But it's worth thinking about.
And when someone wins with their Taxman-Market Square-Venture engine, just remember, that it didn't come out of the blue, and you could have seen it coming.

Until then,

stay bald, everyone.

[DG]

Like cutpurse, it's stronger in multiplayer. The 4 card hand immunity gives you some protection but if your coppers get repeatedly taxed in the early game you get stuck buying silver that in turn gets taxed in the mid/end game. Taxing high cost cards in the end game has to be part of the taxman's value so that could mean drawing hands with big income spikes, perhaps allowing you to save a good treasure for next turn and make your opponent discard too.

[dondon151]

Taxman should make engine vs. money games absolutely brutal for the money side while also helping the engine side substantially.

[TheMirrorMan]

It's one of the few cards which can operate well if you watch what your opponent is doing. Did he just topdeck a silver with armory or watchtower ? Oh wait, let me trash my own silver. There goes yours!

One of the few interactions I see may be with forager. You quickly get a pile of all sorts in your deck.

[TheMirrorMan]

Btw : I do see some comparison with a (weaker) form of reassigning your money (like with courtyard - although I do not really want to compare the two) - you can choose what to trash and what to keep.

[terminalCopper]

It's amazing with Fools Gold. And probably nice with Courtyard, as you may use your weak turns to get some.

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

[Powerman]

It's amazing with Fools Gold. And probably nice with Courtyard, as you may use your weak turns to get some.

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

How does it compare with yours?

[terminalCopper]

Mine is better.

[Mr Anderson]

Mine is better.

It depends on the board.

Taxman has the attack which can hurt your opponent while hurting your own turn while Mine makes your turn slightly better.

[Awaclus]

Mine is better.

It depends on the board.

Taxman has the attack which can hurt your opponent while hurting your own turn while Mine makes your turn slightly better.

How does Your Taxman make my turn any better at all?

[Mr Anderson]

You play it in between (Village, Village, Taxman, Smithy, ...).

[markusin]

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

Speaking of Bureaucrat, I remember playing a weak board with no real engine potential where I opened Bureaucrat then got a Taxman or two. Bureaucrat gives silver, Taxman turns the Silver into Gold, and both slow down your opponent a bit. It seemed solid

[werothegreat]

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

Speaking of Bureaucrat, I remember playing a weak board with no real engine potential where I opened Bureaucrat then got a Taxman or two. Bureaucrat gives silver, Taxman turns the Silver into Gold, and both slow down your opponent a bit. It seemed solid

Except Taxman is essentially a Bureaucrat with a disadvantage.  It's a selective Cutpurse that also hits you.  The Attack is nice, the Mine-ing is nice, it's just the punching your turn in the face part that isn't nice.  Taxman is something you'll probably want to get a lot of the time, but you won't enjoy it very much.

[pingpongsam]

Taxman with Market Square and preferably another deck thinner is extremely strong.

[flies]

Taxman with Market Square and preferably another deck thinner is extremely strong.

Maybe decent, but it leaves you with 2 cards in hand. 

edit: that's the problem with Market Square in general tho.  On second thought, it's probably not a big problem b/c you've gotten a gold and maybe you can pick up a hamlet or s/t.  So I'm ambivalent.

[pingpongsam]

Gaining a Gold while top decking a Platinum is considered extremely favorable play for any other hand in the game. I think the psychological impact of forgoing playing multiple actions and employing an actual buy phase tends to overshadow what just happened.

[manthos88]

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.

[Eevee]

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.

I'd say the biggest problem with taxman is that it doesn't help you to win games often at all. Same can be said for saboteur, it is true that not helping your current turn is quite bad.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.

Cutpurse still gives the +2 coins. Not helping your current turn is, really, quite bad.

[Warfreak2]

In fact, it actively hurts your current turn, especially if you're taxing Silver or Gold.

[Awaclus]

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.

Sea Hag isn't bad, because the effect is just so good (it hurts your opponent's next hand as much as the Hag itself hurt your hand this turn and every reshuffle after that one it will continue to hurt your opponent even more - and additionally it gives minus points for your opponent). Saboteur, on the other hand, is really pretty bad.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Sea Hag seems so good because the lasting impact of the attack is so strong that even if you don't execute your strategy well, it's good. Taxman doesn't do this, so if you're just mindlessly buying it and playing it the way some people do with Sea Hag, it will feel pretty weak. But I think it's actually pretty strong (not Sea Hag strong, but still strong). It slows the game down, and gives you a good economic advantage that accumulates with each shuffle. As with Sea Hag, its immediate impact is worse for you than for your opponent(s), but now instead of the lasting effect being on their deck, it's on yours. So you have to do something to leverage that to feel its power, particular, you need to have good cycling.

[NoMoreFun]

One early realisation about Moneylender is that it's a Terminal Silver with a bonus "Trash a copper" effect. This is because losing a copper from your hand is -$1 in most cases. It's quite a stroke of genius that the perception of a card can go from "Powerful with a penalty" to "Average with a bonus" with such simple wording - a perfect fit for a base set card.

Both Taxman and Mine also attempt to avoid penalising you for trashing the treasure in your hand:
Mine, by putting the gained treasure in hand, ensures that you're usually at least +$1 better off.
Taxman on the other hand gives the penalty of losing the treasure to ALL players, so you're never worse off. Theoretically you should suffer less  on average because you're in control of when to take the hit, but the attack sometimes whiffs (doesn't stop the other player from making the optimal move, as well as flat out not working). I think you tend to lose out more often unless you have a way of knowing the other player's hand.

Compare it to this similar card:
Tax Builder:
Action - $4
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure that isn't the named card. Trash it, and gain a Treasure costing $3 more than it, putting it on top of your deck. Discard the other revealed cards.

[terminalCopper]

[..] it's a [..] card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, [..]  it hurts your current hand ..

This is true, but it doesn't say anything about the quality of the card. The crucial question is: how strong are these effects? Some details:

1.) Improving future turns: This is great with platinum or Fools Gold on board. With other alt-treasures, it's only marginally better than usual.

2.) Hurting your opponent: At the beginning, naming copper is almost foolproof, but the reliability of the attack decreases during the game. The most important issue is probably whether your opponent can avoid to buy many silvers - if so, you severely risk to be the only player with -2$ in the current turn, which is almost a No-Go.

3.) Hurting yourself: Assuming you open with Taxman, your average economy will be below $3 after taxmaning yourself. If there are no cheap desirable cards, you have crushed your entire move just to transform a copper into silver - not great.

All in all, Taxman will be a bad card more often than not, as silver is often avoidable and many kingdoms do not include good cheap cards.

[pingpongsam]

For some reason everyone seems to ignore the fact that Taxman top-decks the upgraded treasure. I think this eschews the impact on the current hand. No one bitches about leaving Watchtower in hand for the top-deck effect on buy even though doing so directly impacts the current hand.

[Mic Qsenoch]

For some reason everyone seems to ignore the fact that Taxman top-decks the upgraded treasure. I think this eschews the impact on the current hand. No one bitches about leaving Watchtower in hand for the top-deck effect on buy even though doing so directly impacts the current hand.

But in the early game, you can just play the Watchtower to get the extra cards, you don't have that option with Taxman. This particular next turn effect (step up the level of a single treasure) is often a lot worse than buying a $5 action right now.

[WanderingWinder]

For some reason everyone seems to ignore the fact that Taxman top-decks the upgraded treasure. I think this eschews the impact on the current hand. No one bitches about leaving Watchtower in hand for the top-deck effect on buy even though doing so directly impacts the current hand.

You really shouldn't leave your watchtower in hand very often to topdeck, especially early, unless there's a terminal collision or it wouldn't have drawn you anything. Yes, there are exceptions, but most often, you don't want to do that.

Also, in an engine, topdecking a treasure is BAD.

[Schneau]

To me, the closest existing card to Taxman isn't Mine or Cutpurse or Noble Brigand, but Bureaucrat. Taxman often leaves a Silver on top of your deck and slightly hurts your opponent's turn, whether this one or next one; Bureaucrat is the same. The main difference is that Taxman trashes a Copper from your hand while doing so, which hurts this hand and helps future turns (if you don't want Copper). It's also different in that it can upgrade other Treasures besides Copper. The attacks, especially during the beginning, are actually quite similar. So, I think I'd give Taxman a slight edge over Bureaucrat in most games, where the ability to choose the Treasure to upgrade and the Copper trashing may slightly outweigh hurting the current hand. But, I'd say they're very close.

(Plus, that makes Taxman very appropriately named  )

[pingpongsam]

Put Taxman and Market Square plus another trasher like Apprentice as well as Platinum/Colony in any set minus the obvious goto cards such as Goons or Torturer and watch as every player goes for a Taxman/Market Square strategy. Try not doing it yourself and see how well you fare.

[SCSN]

Put Taxman and Market Square plus another trasher like Apprentice as well as Platinum/Colony in any set minus the obvious goto cards such as Goons or Torturer and watch as every player goes for a Taxman/Market Square strategy. Try not doing it yourself and see how well you fare.

I'm not too sure what you're getting at, but Apprentice/Market Square is a power combo that crushes anything involving a Taxman.

[TheMirrorMan]

A nice one with the Forager - Taxman opening. Of course it does not help that my opponent has 5/2 ...

http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140221/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1393000416132.txt

[pubby]

Going to necrobump this thread with some data from simulation.

Here is the likelihood that you can hit a money amount at least once on turn 3 or 4 using Taxman as first player, compared to your opponent's chances as second player.

Code: [Select]

+--------------------------------------+
| Opening            |  $5 |  $6 |  $7 |
|--------------------------------------|
| P1 Taxman / Silver | 68% | 30% |  7% |
|--------------------------------------|
| P2 Silver / Silver | 74% | 27% |  5% |
|--------------------------------------|
| P2 T.Silv / Silver | 77% | 28% |  5% |
|--------------------------------------|
| P2 T.Silv / T.Silv | 60% | 13% |  0% |
+--------------------------------------+Notice how Taxman is more likely to hit $6 or $7 than their opponent.

[theright555J]

From my read of that chart, Taxman/silver gains about 3% chance of 6-7 and is a low probability spike anyway, however gives up close to 8-9% chance of hitting 5. On most boards it is more important to hit an early 5 than 6 or 7 (altar or forge may be notable exceptions), so to me the risk outweighs any benefit most of the time.

[Titandrake]

Oh, actually has anyone done a Taxman/Venture sim yet? There's a nice amount of synergy between the two, since Venture lets you use the topdecked treasure immediately and Taxman improves general treasure quality.

I don't think it's a power combo, but it has potential to at least be decent.

[jomini]

Oh, actually has anyone done a Taxman/Venture sim yet? There's a nice amount of synergy between the two, since Venture lets you use the topdecked treasure immediately and Taxman improves general treasure quality.

I don't think it's a power combo, but it has potential to at least be decent.

While there is some synergy, I don't think it would amount to "nice". Taxman needs to double tap cards to make Ventures, and you will start in slightly slower on buying the Ventures. Because Venture flips Taxman and you need to line up Silver/Copper with the Taxman. You just aren't that likely to gain many Ventures off Silver -> Venture without killing a buy. I mean if I taxman a Silver -> Venture and am left with $3, what am I going to buy? Silver?. Given that it also lacks +buy, I'm looking at a slow increase in money density and my payout at the end is just one VP card a turn. I'm just not seeing this as being nice. He trashes coppers to Silver and Silvers to Ventures, good, but when Venture is good his utility drops from cycling past him and the need to compete on Venture. When you do play him, you likely lose a $1 (Silver -> Venture, draw the new Venture with one in hand is a direct loss of $1. Copper - Silver can be neutral (if you'd Venture to a copper instead) or lose $1 or more (if copper -> silver breaks a Venture chain it could theoretically cost $14)

Where I find Taxman to be good are in places with lots of draw & draw potential. If I'm not mirrored then limited draw like Wt and Menage both benefit a lot in that drawing the top deck can be "free" (mirrors may well help the "attacked" player more). Taxman is also nice when I don't have to burn a real buy on it. E.g. I'm doing Iw to setup an engine. Rather than spending $6's on golds, I can get the Taxman, play him and rapidly build value. As a $3 value gainer he can work well in decks that cash out with scaling TfB (Forge, Butcher, Bishop, etc.), particularly if there is a viable chain of gain Silver -> Tax to gold -> trash Gold for benefit. I like to think he is better with potion decks, allowing for fun things like early double Pot buys and later Pot -> Gold "thinning" (also the fun of taxing a Pot, buying a cheap Pot card & a new Pot is hilarious), but I'm not sure that this is actually that useful.


One fun thing is that he can change optimal strategy without ever being bought. He works well at crippling money decks by discarding silvers and golds, so engine gets more breather room against money decks, particularly in the late game. Of course other players see this often and don't go money (taking a weaker engine). Engine against engine often means I need to contest the splits on village or draw more ... so I don't buy him early and late game it would take too long to get a real payout (he is, afterall, completely useless as an attack once your opponent can deck draw +1) to get him later.

Taxman does get better with strong $2 and $3 choices, but in general my experience is that he is best in engines, and best bought in the mid game where you don't start each turn after him with a reduced chance of hitting village+draw.

[LastFootnote]

Oh, actually has anyone done a Taxman/Venture sim yet? There's a nice amount of synergy between the two, since Venture lets you use the topdecked treasure immediately and Taxman improves general treasure quality.

I don't think it's a power combo, but it has potential to at least be decent.

While there is some synergy, I don't think it would amount to "nice". Taxman needs to double tap cards to make Ventures, and you will start in slightly slower on buying the Ventures. Because Venture flips Taxman and you need to line up Silver/Copper with the Taxman. You just aren't that likely to gain many Ventures off Silver -> Venture without killing a buy. I mean if I taxman a Silver -> Venture and am left with $3, what am I going to buy? Silver?. Given that it also lacks +buy, I'm looking at a slow increase in money density and my payout at the end is just one VP card a turn. I'm just not seeing this as being nice. He trashes coppers to Silver and Silvers to Ventures, good, but when Venture is good his utility drops from cycling past him and the need to compete on Venture. When you do play him, you likely lose a $1 (Silver -> Venture, draw the new Venture with one in hand is a direct loss of $1. Copper - Silver can be neutral (if you'd Venture to a copper instead) or lose $1 or more (if copper -> silver breaks a Venture chain it could theoretically cost $14)

I don't think Titandrake said anything about gaining Ventures with Taxman. Use Taxman as usual (Copper --> Silver --> Gold), then use Venture to play the Treasure you just topdecked.

[theright555J]

double Pot buys and ...  taxing a Pot, buying a cheap Pot

Hey, are you from Colorado or Washington, or on some other state legislature??  Sounds like government at work here 

[jomini]

I don't think Titandrake said anything about gaining Ventures with Taxman. Use Taxman as usual (Copper --> Silver --> Gold), then use Venture to play the Treasure you just topdecked.

Yeah but that doesn't work well either.

Say my hand is TaxmanVentCCE. I Tax C-> S, top deck it. So I play CCVent(S). Net money at the end of the turn: $5. Now suppose I just don't Tax. Then I go CCCV(something). Unless I have no other treasure in my deck, I will hit as much ($5) or more if don't play the Taxman. Venture has two effects: it "draws one card" but also sifts past non-treasures. When Venture is good you want as much of that non-random sifting as you can manage (assuming that you aren't worried about sifting past actions).

Where Taxman has synergy is that it does increase the money density by making subsequent Ventures likely to draw something worth more. This helps, but pretty much every copper trasher also does this.

[Titandrake]

If you just count the money you're getting it's nothing special, but you're ignoring the Taxman attack.

You're right in that if you play Taxman with Venture in hand, you guarantee hitting current amount in hand + $1, and if you don't play Taxman, you guaranteed current amount in hand + $1 or more. The theory I was considering is that it lets you do an incremental Copper/Silver discard attempt on many turns while downplaying one of the weakest parts of Taxman, which is forcing you to lose a treasure this turn to only gain one for the next.

[Polk5440]

Not a sim, but here is a game where I employed a Taxman/Venture strategy (sorry, log prettifier not working). I tried to use Taxman to do two things: 1) Get a gold 2) Turn silvers into Ventures to get a long chain going. Then when bloated with green, 1 Venture in hand may be all that is needed to hit $8.

This deck was only as fast as it was because of additional trashing (I opened Trading Post; Remake was an option). And even then, it's not super duper amazing -- just good enough.

So, not the most spectacular combo ever, but worth keeping in mind, I think.

[jomini]

If you just count the money you're getting it's nothing special, but you're ignoring the Taxman attack.

You're right in that if you play Taxman with Venture in hand, you guarantee hitting current amount in hand + $1, and if you don't play Taxman, you guaranteed current amount in hand + $1 or more. The theory I was considering is that it lets you do an incremental Copper/Silver discard attempt on many turns while downplaying one of the weakest parts of Taxman, which is forcing you to lose a treasure this turn to only gain one for the next.

Yeah, but how does the attack synergize with Venture? I mean it makes it harder for the opponent to hit $5, but that is true for any $5.

For $4, I expect something more than a gimped Cutpurse. Not to mention the fact that as I buy more Ventures, I will see that Taxman less and less (particularly as I DON'T want to play him on Venture).

Taxman increases money density, just like Mine. Unlike Mine it makes it harder to hit $5 this turn.

Now is there some synergy? Yeah, Venture likes high money density and C -> S is good for it. But much better is C -> nothing with a bonus that helps you buy a Venture. Being able to buy a province off just one or two Ventures lets you green a lot faster so I'd take an awful lot of copper trashers before Taxman in my Venture deck (e.g. Salvager, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Counterfeit, Upgrade, Forager, Masquerade, Bishop, etc.); particularly on the boards where Venture is more likely to be good (e.g. Colonies) I don't want to do the slow creep up to my average Venture being worth $4; I want my average Venture play to hit $9 asap and then jump to Colony purchases.

[Titandrake]

So what?

It seems like your argument is that there are other cards that have better synergy than Taxman does. That's true. It also doesn't matter.

My point is what I said in that quote: Taxman and Venture are an interesting pair, because Venture helps shore up the weaknesses of Taxman and Taxman helps improve money density for Venture, while giving you an attack on the side. It doesn't matter than Mine is better for this than Taxman. It doesn't matter that Moneylender and Counterfeit are better at improving money density for Venture than Taxman is. These are all good points, but they're good points in a thread about Venture, not a thread about Taxman.

If you're under the impression I think this is a powerful combo, I've already said it isn't. It's cute, that's it. Since Taxman topdecks treasures, and Venture plays treasures from the deck, it seemed like it had potential. Based on Polk's game, it usually isn't going to be worth it, and it'll probably be worth it in games with almost nothing else going on.

[eHalcyon]

This is reminding me of the Counterfeit+Venture thread, except jomini has switched hats.

[Titandrake]

Oh my goodness why did you change your avatar to a picture someone else has used before.

AHHHHHHHH

[Gherald]

We have long known Mine is a weak card at $5, and only somewhat good as an engine payload you play almost every turn.

Superficially, Taxman looks weaker than mine. You have to wait until your next turn to get the benefit.

And yet, that can be a strength. We know that, without an engine, the turn on which we play our Mine/Taxman is going to be a weak turn.  Mine basically counts as a +1$ copper unless there's Platinum involved, and Taxman is even worse in that it subtracts money from your hand.  Right?

But think about that next turn. With Taxman suddenly you're guaranteed a Silver or Gold plus whatever your next 4 cards were. That's when you buy a nice $5 or $6 that you maybe couldn't have afforded before

So in some ways, Taxman has a mini Tactician effect.  (Haven is the more direct parallel, but haven doesn't immediately and permanently improve your buying power)

Frankly, I think Taxman is a better card than Mine. When there's no other good treasure trashing on the board I am more likely to buy a Taxman than a Mine, and not just because of the price point.

[eHalcyon]

Oh my goodness why did you change your avatar to a picture someone else has used before.

AHHHHHHHH

Only for this.  It'll change back soon!

[Chris is me]

The comparisons to Mine are useful, but they don't tell the whole story, as the thing that makes Taxman interesting is the attack. In some ways it's a lot like Cutpurse, without the immediate cash value, but it also attacks Silver or Gold.

So Mine has some problems. It's decent early game, and the benefit it gives you lasts for the duration of the game (more money density). It's slow to resolve, and as the game goes on it gets progressively less useful as your money is mostly upgraded. It's a terminal Copper the turn you play it which isn't that great.

Taxman doesn't fix all of those problems, but it addresses some of them a little bit and it's specifically a lot more useful later in the game than Mine. So as a $4, you get to start using Taxman a lot sooner, which actually helps a lot. It's an attack, so while you're taking weaker turns by using Taxman over, say, Smithy, your opponents are also a bit stunted to compensate. In many situations, enabling a bigger next turn is better than a bit of help this turn with no attack, but in return your deck cycling is slower.

The real strength of Taxman is that it can still be good in the middle to end game, particularly against an opponent playing with Treasures as the main source of income. If you're careful about deck tracking, both your own and your opponents, you can trash Silver or even Gold to neuter your opponent's turn, if you think it will do more damage to their turn than it's doing to your turn. If you have a $7 hand near the end of the game, you're already buying a Duchy, so you might as well Taxman the Silver for the attack. This isn't a GREAT attack, but it's got a bit of niche utility. I think the biggest factor in determining if Taxman will be useful is evaluating how strong the attack will be near the end of the game.

[Awaclus]

The real strength of Taxman is that it can still be good in the middle to end game, particularly against an opponent playing with Treasures as the main source of income. If you're careful about deck tracking, both your own and your opponents, you can trash Silver or even Gold to neuter your opponent's turn, if you think it will do more damage to their turn than it's doing to your turn. If you have a $7 hand near the end of the game, you're already buying a Duchy, so you might as well Taxman the Silver for the attack. This isn't a GREAT attack, but it's got a bit of niche utility. I think the biggest factor in determining if Taxman will be useful is evaluating how strong the attack will be near the end of the game.

Specifically against an opponent playing a big money strategy. It doesn't really matter if that Gold is in their hand or discard pile if they're just going to play a bunch of Villages and Smithies and draw it anyway.

But it's true that the attack can be pretty relevant. I think that Taxman is usually worth it only in a scenario where you have semi-powerful engine components, maybe some trashing too, but not really any good payload options other than basic Treasures. Those kinds of kingdoms can oftentimes result in games where one player is going for the engine while another player is playing big money, and Taxman is super good for the engine player in that case, because you can play it every turn to trash a Gold, topdeck a Gold, and then draw that Gold with something to more or less guarantee that the big money player gets all of his good hands hit by a powerful attack.

[jomini]

This is reminding me of the Counterfeit+Venture thread, except jomini has switched hats.

=)

I'm fairly precise on a lot of stuff. "Venture lets you use the topdecked treasure immediately"

Is an active downgrading of Venture. You sacrifice all your sifting potential and cap your potential cash draw for the dubious privilege of inflicting some possible penalty on your opponent.

Compare this to Cutpurse. There your opponent is down $1 and you are up $2 for a net of $3 towards you while it has no synergy with Venture you will hit at least $4 off Venture/Cutpurse. If you Taxman a copper? Well you both are down $1 and you get a whopping $3 out of your hand.

When Venture is dominant, Counterfeit is among the strongest copper trashers and certainly makes the largest relative jump from all boards to Venture dominant boards in terms of strength (e.g. Remake is strong but it is always strong). When Venture is dominant, Taxman is less likely to be played, it degrades the cycling aspect of your Ventures, it gets flipped often by Ventures, and it offers little to nothing for the end game. I'll take it over nothing on a Venture dominant board, but it has relatively little synergy.

[eHalcyon]

Counterfeit is always strong too, about as much as Remake is always strong.  I think you are right about Taxman+Venture, but Titandrake is pointing out small synergies the same way you were with Counterfeit+Venture (minus the Copper trashing synergy, which was already given before you joined that thread). 

But man, I have no desire to get into all that again.  I just thought the similarities in discussion were funny.

[DG]

This is reminding me of the Counterfeit+Venture thread, except jomini has switched hats.

=)

I'm fairly precise on a lot of stuff. "Venture lets you use the topdecked treasure immediately"

Is an active downgrading of Venture. You sacrifice all your sifting potential and cap your potential cash draw for the dubious privilege of inflicting some possible penalty on your opponent.

You don't sacrifice anything if you gain a venture on top of the deck. There is no 'sifting' from playing a venture, only cycling, and the quality of the draw deck remains unchanged. There is some extra shuffle/deck control from the choice of gaining a venture or gold on top of the deck. (all assuming you have a venture in hand).

[jomini]

Counterfeit is always strong too, about as much as Remake is always strong.  I think you are right about Taxman+Venture, but Titandrake is pointing out small synergies the same way you were with Counterfeit+Venture (minus the Copper trashing synergy, which was already given before you joined that thread). 

But man, I have no desire to get into all that again.  I just thought the similarities in discussion were funny.

Yep, he just doesn't call them small, which I did from the beginning for a reason.

You don't sacrifice anything if you gain a venture on top of the deck. There is no 'sifting' from playing a venture, only cycling, and the quality of the draw deck remains unchanged. There is some extra shuffle/deck control from the choice of gaining a venture or gold on top of the deck. (all assuming you have a venture in hand).

This is false. To get to Venture you had to start with Silver in hand (ignoring edge cases with Loan or Quarry). TmanSVent gives you 2 + 1 + Next treasure for cash without playing Tman. Playing Tman -> 1 + 1 + Next treasure.

Objectively, having a Venture in hand does not obviate the penalty to current hand of Tman. Barring real edge cases, Tman is only a net gain to your current hand when you have no terminal treasures to draw off Venture chains. Barring that, at best Tman breaks even in cash.

And yes, Venture sifts in a limited fashion - i.e. the green and action cards in your deck are statistically less likely to ever be in your hand and preventing the play of treasures.

In most decks, this isn't that much or that good - you normally want actions, to play them often, and the sifting out of green is balanced by the sifting out of actions. However, if you a Venture dominant board (e.g. colonies, limited trash, Rabble), then skipping your actions may be minimally an issue.

Take the simple case - an 8 Venture deck with 8 Green. I will have all 8 Ventures in play each hand while I will have only 2.5 greens. Or take another fun thought experiment. I have a Prince of Spice Merchants. Each hand I begin with a single Venture on deck top. Every turn I will play all the cards I want to play.

I mean this is like saying Hunting Party doesn't sift, it just cycles. Yet somehow if I have over draw in a Hp deck or in a Venture deck I somehow manage to consistently leave a discard pile full of dross.

You can quibble about some useless semantics of what "sifting" is, but Venture decks (where Venture is the dominant card in the deck) do everything you want from a Sifting deck (skip the dross and play the cards that let you buy a colony).

[DG]

Go back and read the long discussion of venture maths again before you post anything else. I'm afraid you've got the wrong interpretations and we can't be working it all out again in this thread.

[jomini]

DG:

My arguments are still the same from those old threads:
1. Venture has a sifting effect when played strategically with deck tracking and considering the reshuffle (which the extended thread there never dealt with).
2. The threads were about "does venture sift for the NEXT hand". I am here asserting, as noted by blueblimp way back when, is does venture sift THIS turn.

I continue to understand that a naive play of Venture does not change deck distribution for the rest of the shuffle.

However, if you look at the rate at which you play things, Venture decreases the frequency with which you play actions (i.e. it is < 1 per shuffle), the frequency with which you "play" green decreases (i.e. the number of times each green card ends up in your hand goes down per shuffle), the frequency with you play treasures stays the same (i.e. once per reshuffle); the rate of shuffles increases. You can call this dynamic whatever you will, but it does happen.

Again the extreme case is instructive. 8 Ventures with 20 cards (3 action, 9 green). On average, you will draw through your entire deck each turn. You will play each of 8 Ventures on average. You will play .75 actions per turn. Effectively, you are sifting for your treasures and past green/actions.

This is why Taxman has more limited value for Venture. On a given shuffle your chances of seeing Taxman, at all, are <1 and decrease with an increasing number of Ventures. Taxman, by having to go through Silver rather than just deleting a copper for some bonus does not increase the expected draw value of Venture as quickly. If Venture is dominant, I'm just not seeing all that many alternative copper trashers that aren't much better. A Venture bought THIS turn is worth a good bit more than a Venture bought next turn if Ventures will be contested (and dominant).

[DG]

No you're still wrong I'm afraid. The ventures do not change the frequency that actions are drawn in hand. The cards in hand are always drawn from the same distribution, end of story (ignoring cards in play during a shuffle). All the venture 'sifting' benefits improve the current hand (compared to market, say). You might play less actions before a shuffle but you shuffle more often. Count it for yourself with cards or simulations before you argue any further.

I'm not going to get drawn into this further, this my last post on the matter.

[pacovf]

DG, you are basically saying the same thing jomini is, with different words.

[werothegreat]

DG, you are basically saying the same thing jomini is, with different words.

The problem is that jomini takes so long to say anything, it's hard to tell exactly what he's saying sometimes.  Maybe try to summarize more?

[Flip5ide]

It's amazing with Fools Gold. And probably nice with Courtyard, as you may use your weak turns to get some.

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

How does it compare with yours?

Mine is better.

It depends on the board.

Taxman has the attack which can hurt your opponent while hurting your own turn while Mine makes your turn slightly better.

Joke






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