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Author Topic: Musings about Taxman  (Read 33216 times)

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Titandrake

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Musings about Taxman
« on: September 22, 2013, 09:58:14 pm »
+9

Taxman.

I like this card. I really want this card to be good. But I'm pretty certain it's not. I haven't played many games where I picked up Taxman yet, certainly not enough for an article, but I've thought about it a bit and I figure I should put stream of consciousness stuff out here, to at least start a conversation.

Why is Taxman underwhelming?
Fundamentally, Taxman does almost nothing for you on your own turn. The immediate comparison is to Cutpurse. While Taxman gains you a Silver on top and trashes a Copper, Cutpurse gives you the +$2 right then, and that's a lot stronger, especially because Taxman hurts your hand, now. Because of this, a Taxman opening is, at least, pretty bad. But the point of Taxman is to upgrade your Treasures into better ones, so you want Taxman early to give a better shot of colliding with your Treasures. It's a card you both want and don't want early, and that makes it awkward to ever justify picking up; by the time you'd want it, you probably have $5+ and there's something better.

What are good situations to buy Taxman?
Underwhelming cards need underwhelming boards. Something slow, with not much going on. Something that lets you pick up Taxman in the opening, to give you time to buy Treasures worth Taxmanning and use the treasure you gain. Discarding a Copper is good and all, but it's really not worth it, not for a $4 Action. You want to be hitting Silvers as much as you can, especially because hitting a Silver discard is so strong. It's almost a Militia.

Quantity Matters
To me, Taxman compares most closely with Noble Brigand. Both act as ways to counter primarily money based strategies, both are very underwhelming the turn you play them, and both need many plays in order to be useful. So, if you do want Taxman, my guess is you don't want just 1 or 2. You want something like 4 or 5, something that lets you play Taxman every turn. Playing an attack every turn hurts no matter what that attack is, and given that Taxman slows down your shuffles, you probably need to have lots of copies, rather than 1 copy + an engine, to make it work nicely.

The "Next Turn" Counter
Just a small note; Taxman makes your current turn worse for your next turn being better. So it might be a decent counter to discard attacks. Topdeck something good, make your current turn awful. My guess is that this "counter" is actually awful, but food for thought.

Kingdom Treasure Interactions
It's worth thinking through what Kingdom Treasures could work well with Taxman. Potion could help; Taxman gives a way to get a Potion, now, if you really need it. Quarry doesn't feel synergistic.

Loan is interesting in that you can trash Coppers, then Taxman the Loan into a Gold, but Loan also discards the treasure you topdeck with Taxman, so it's an overall wash.

Hoard? Well, maybe. But you aren't Taxmanning those Gold you're gaining, so eh, not the best.

Harem? Seems pretty nice actually, just as a way to get VP now.

Plat? Mine is better with Plat out, Taxman is also better, not much else to say.

Talisman? Actually, Talisman gives a way to get lots of Taxmen/Silver, and then you can turn Talisman into a Gold when you don't need it. Might be worth exploring. (Speaking of which, Explorer/Taxman? Probably the best 2-terminal-in-deck-that-probably-has-no-villages combo yet, besides Chancellor/Counting House.)

Masterpiece. Again, an interesting combo. Overpay, get lots of Silvers, turn the Masterpiece into Gold. Again, this is all assuming Taxman on $3 cost is the ideal play for Taxman.

Venture. The card that inspired all of these musings. Taxman + Venture sounds very interesting. Taxman increases your average treasure quality, it gives a way to gain more Ventures than usual, and you can play Venture to hit your topdecked treasure, so Taxman doesn't kill your current turn as horribly. So mini-challenge: try playing, or simulating, Taxman-Venture, tell me what you get.

The tl;dr
Taxman is pretty bad.
If you never buy Taxman, you probably aren't missing much.
If you do buy it, make sure you can play it every turn, or it's likely a waste.
Even in the niche it fills, it's still not very strong.
But it's worth thinking about.
And when someone wins with their Taxman-Market Square-Venture engine, just remember, that it didn't come out of the blue, and you could have seen it coming.

Until then,

stay bald, everyone.
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DG

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2013, 10:21:01 pm »
0

Like cutpurse, it's stronger in multiplayer. The 4 card hand immunity gives you some protection but if your coppers get repeatedly taxed in the early game you get stuck buying silver that in turn gets taxed in the mid/end game. Taxing high cost cards in the end game has to be part of the taxman's value so that could mean drawing hands with big income spikes, perhaps allowing you to save a good treasure for next turn and make your opponent discard too.
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dondon151

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 01:40:14 am »
0

Taxman should make engine vs. money games absolutely brutal for the money side while also helping the engine side substantially.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 02:50:33 am »
0

It's one of the few cards which can operate well if you watch what your opponent is doing. Did he just topdeck a silver with armory or watchtower ? Oh wait, let me trash my own silver. There goes yours!

One of the few interactions I see may be with forager. You quickly get a pile of all sorts in your deck.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 02:52:39 am »
0

Btw : I do see some comparison with a (weaker) form of reassigning your money (like with courtyard - although I do not really want to compare the two) - you can choose what to trash and what to keep.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 04:37:28 am »
+2

It's amazing with Fools Gold. And probably nice with Courtyard, as you may use your weak turns to get some.

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:55:53 am by terminalCopper »
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Powerman

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 10:18:02 am »
+4

It's amazing with Fools Gold. And probably nice with Courtyard, as you may use your weak turns to get some.

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.

How does it compare with yours?
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terminalCopper

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 01:51:55 pm »
0

Mine is better.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 02:02:42 pm »
0

Mine is better.

It depends on the board.

Taxman has the attack which can hurt your opponent while hurting your own turn while Mine makes your turn slightly better.
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Awaclus

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 02:20:58 pm »
+1

Mine is better.
It depends on the board.

Taxman has the attack which can hurt your opponent while hurting your own turn while Mine makes your turn slightly better.
How does Your Taxman make my turn any better at all?
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2013, 03:02:22 pm »
0

You play it in between (Village, Village, Taxman, Smithy, ...).
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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2013, 04:14:32 pm »
0

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.
Speaking of Bureaucrat, I remember playing a weak board with no real engine potential where I opened Bureaucrat then got a Taxman or two. Bureaucrat gives silver, Taxman turns the Silver into Gold, and both slow down your opponent a bit. It seemed solid
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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 08:18:23 am »
0

I would add comparisons to Beaurocrat, and, obviously, mine.
Speaking of Bureaucrat, I remember playing a weak board with no real engine potential where I opened Bureaucrat then got a Taxman or two. Bureaucrat gives silver, Taxman turns the Silver into Gold, and both slow down your opponent a bit. It seemed solid

Except Taxman is essentially a Bureaucrat with a disadvantage.  It's a selective Cutpurse that also hits you.  The Attack is nice, the Mine-ing is nice, it's just the punching your turn in the face part that isn't nice.  Taxman is something you'll probably want to get a lot of the time, but you won't enjoy it very much.
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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 08:59:29 am »
0

Taxman with Market Square and preferably another deck thinner is extremely strong.
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flies

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 11:08:34 am »
0

Taxman with Market Square and preferably another deck thinner is extremely strong.
Maybe decent, but it leaves you with 2 cards in hand. 

edit: that's the problem with Market Square in general tho.  On second thought, it's probably not a big problem b/c you've gotten a gold and maybe you can pick up a hamlet or s/t.  So I'm ambivalent.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 11:11:22 am by flies »
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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 11:17:53 am »
+3

Gaining a Gold while top decking a Platinum is considered extremely favorable play for any other hand in the game. I think the psychological impact of forgoing playing multiple actions and employing an actual buy phase tends to overshadow what just happened.
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manthos88

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 05:25:32 am »
0

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.
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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2013, 05:39:57 am »
0

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.
I'd say the biggest problem with taxman is that it doesn't help you to win games often at all. Same can be said for saboteur, it is true that not helping your current turn is quite bad.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.
Cutpurse still gives the +2 coins. Not helping your current turn is, really, quite bad.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2013, 05:58:15 am »
0

In fact, it actively hurts your current turn, especially if you're taxing Silver or Gold.
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Awaclus

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 06:36:14 am »
0

I have to strongly disagree that Taxman is a bad card. It's a decent card that adds variety in Big Money and/or Engine-Hybrid games. In my opinion, it's a revolutionary card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, starting from your next one. Well, as a drawback for those benefits, it hurts your current hand by giving you no immediate effect. But, there are also other cards, that hurt your hand in similar way: Why don't you say that Sea Hag and Saboteur are bad?? They hurt your hand! Are they bad?? I don't think so... Same goes to Taxman.

As regarding to comparing it to Cutpurse, i think Taxman is a better attack than Cutpurse, because it can still attack mid and late game, while Cutpurse will have almost no effect at these stages of the game.
Sea Hag isn't bad, because the effect is just so good (it hurts your opponent's next hand as much as the Hag itself hurt your hand this turn and every reshuffle after that one it will continue to hurt your opponent even more - and additionally it gives minus points for your opponent). Saboteur, on the other hand, is really pretty bad.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:38:12 am by Awaclus »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 06:15:42 pm »
+2

Sea Hag seems so good because the lasting impact of the attack is so strong that even if you don't execute your strategy well, it's good. Taxman doesn't do this, so if you're just mindlessly buying it and playing it the way some people do with Sea Hag, it will feel pretty weak. But I think it's actually pretty strong (not Sea Hag strong, but still strong). It slows the game down, and gives you a good economic advantage that accumulates with each shuffle. As with Sea Hag, its immediate impact is worse for you than for your opponent(s), but now instead of the lasting effect being on their deck, it's on yours. So you have to do something to leverage that to feel its power, particular, you need to have good cycling.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2013, 01:19:29 am »
0

One early realisation about Moneylender is that it's a Terminal Silver with a bonus "Trash a copper" effect. This is because losing a copper from your hand is -$1 in most cases. It's quite a stroke of genius that the perception of a card can go from "Powerful with a penalty" to "Average with a bonus" with such simple wording - a perfect fit for a base set card.

Both Taxman and Mine also attempt to avoid penalising you for trashing the treasure in your hand:
Mine, by putting the gained treasure in hand, ensures that you're usually at least +$1 better off.
Taxman on the other hand gives the penalty of losing the treasure to ALL players, so you're never worse off. Theoretically you should suffer less  on average because you're in control of when to take the hit, but the attack sometimes whiffs (doesn't stop the other player from making the optimal move, as well as flat out not working). I think you tend to lose out more often unless you have a way of knowing the other player's hand.

Compare it to this similar card:
Tax Builder:
Action - $4
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure that isn't the named card. Trash it, and gain a Treasure costing $3 more than it, putting it on top of your deck. Discard the other revealed cards.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2013, 08:56:12 am »
+1

[..] it's a [..] card, with an effect that will both hurt your opponent's hand and improve your future turns, [..]  it hurts your current hand ..
This is true, but it doesn't say anything about the quality of the card. The crucial question is: how strong are these effects? Some details:

1.) Improving future turns: This is great with platinum or Fools Gold on board. With other alt-treasures, it's only marginally better than usual.

2.) Hurting your opponent: At the beginning, naming copper is almost foolproof, but the reliability of the attack decreases during the game. The most important issue is probably whether your opponent can avoid to buy many silvers - if so, you severely risk to be the only player with -2$ in the current turn, which is almost a No-Go.

3.) Hurting yourself: Assuming you open with Taxman, your average economy will be below $3 after taxmaning yourself. If there are no cheap desirable cards, you have crushed your entire move just to transform a copper into silver - not great.

All in all, Taxman will be a bad card more often than not, as silver is often avoidable and many kingdoms do not include good cheap cards.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 09:21:40 am by terminalCopper »
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pingpongsam

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2013, 10:13:01 am »
0

For some reason everyone seems to ignore the fact that Taxman top-decks the upgraded treasure. I think this eschews the impact on the current hand. No one bitches about leaving Watchtower in hand for the top-deck effect on buy even though doing so directly impacts the current hand.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Musings about Taxman
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2013, 10:28:20 am »
+1

For some reason everyone seems to ignore the fact that Taxman top-decks the upgraded treasure. I think this eschews the impact on the current hand. No one bitches about leaving Watchtower in hand for the top-deck effect on buy even though doing so directly impacts the current hand.

But in the early game, you can just play the Watchtower to get the extra cards, you don't have that option with Taxman. This particular next turn effect (step up the level of a single treasure) is often a lot worse than buying a $5 action right now.
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