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Author Topic: Parentheses are meaningful  (Read 3244 times)

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AJD

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Parentheses are meaningful
« on: September 22, 2013, 09:50:08 pm »
+18

Parentheses are meaningful!

I think.

Cutpurse says: "Each other player discards a Copper card (or reveals a hand with no Copper)."

If it said "Each other player discards a Copper card or reveals a hand with no Copper," I think standard Dominion interpretation would give the opponent the choice of which to do. And then, if you had Copper in hand, you could choose "reveal a hand with no Copper", and then just "do as much as you can", as the saying goes (just like with Torturer, you can choose to gain a Curse even if no Curses are in the supply).

Obviously you can't do this, so we have to infer that "X (or Y)" doesn't mean the same thing as "X or Y" on Dominion cards.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:14:24 pm by AJD »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 09:16:07 am »
+3

Torturer does say "each other player chooses 1", though. Off the top of my head, Tournament gives the "or" without the "choose one", so that might be a better example than Torturer (even though Torturer is an attack and it's the other players, not you, making the choice). Is there any other card in the game that gives an "or" without a "choose one"?

But still, I agree, I almost think of the parenthesis as reminder text in MTG. Though it was discussed before that I actually disagree that cards like Throne Room are missing something for accountability. Playing Throne Room and then not playing an action twice even if you have one is simply cheating. Same would go for a Cutpurse that didn't have the text in parenthesis. You would still have to discard a Copper if you had one; if you didn't have one you would tell your opponent you don't have one. No need to reveal. There's a general assumption throughout the game that your opponent isn't cheating.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 09:46:43 am by GendoIkari »
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AJD

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 10:25:17 am »
0

Torturer does say "each other player chooses 1", though. Off the top of my head, Tournament gives the "or" without the "choose one", so that might be a better example than Torturer (even though Torturer is an attack and it's the other players, not you, making the choice). Is there any other card in the game that gives an "or" without a "choose one"?

Hunting Grounds ("gain a Duchy or 3 Estates") is the only other "or" where it's possible for one of the choices to be possible and the other impossible (but you can still choose the impossible one). A bunch of cards like Navigator and Duchess say "discard it or put it back", though. Duchess gives opponents a choice without explicitly stating "each other player chooses one", if that's what you're looking for.

Quote
Though it was discussed before that I actually disagree that cards like Throne Room are missing something for accountability. Playing Throne Room and then not playing an action twice even if you have one is simply cheating. Same would go for a Cutpurse that didn't have the text in parenthesis. You would still have to discard a Copper if you had one; if you didn't have one you would tell your opponent you don't have one. No need to reveal. There's a general assumption throughout the game that your opponent isn't cheating.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that it's not "missing something for accountability". It means it's possible for a player to cheat without being detected.
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AHoppy

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 10:41:57 am »
0

Torturer does say "each other player chooses 1", though. Off the top of my head, Tournament gives the "or" without the "choose one", so that might be a better example than Torturer (even though Torturer is an attack and it's the other players, not you, making the choice). Is there any other card in the game that gives an "or" without a "choose one"?

Hunting Grounds ("gain a Duchy or 3 Estates") is the only other "or" where it's possible for one of the choices to be possible and the other impossible (but you can still choose the impossible one). A bunch of cards like Navigator and Duchess say "discard it or put it back", though. Duchess gives opponents a choice without explicitly stating "each other player chooses one", if that's what you're looking for.
What about native village?

AJD

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 10:43:03 am »
0

Torturer does say "each other player chooses 1", though. Off the top of my head, Tournament gives the "or" without the "choose one", so that might be a better example than Torturer (even though Torturer is an attack and it's the other players, not you, making the choice). Is there any other card in the game that gives an "or" without a "choose one"?

Hunting Grounds ("gain a Duchy or 3 Estates") is the only other "or" where it's possible for one of the choices to be possible and the other impossible (but you can still choose the impossible one). A bunch of cards like Navigator and Duchess say "discard it or put it back", though. Duchess gives opponents a choice without explicitly stating "each other player chooses one", if that's what you're looking for.
What about native village?

Says "choose one".
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AHoppy

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 10:43:49 am »
0

gotcha.  I wasn't sure.  I just knew it was an instance where you can choose the impossible

DG

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 12:20:56 pm »
0

Quote
If it said "Each other player discards a Copper card or reveals a hand with no Copper," I think standard Dominion interpretation would give the opponent the choice of which to do

The events are mutually exclusive so it doesn't matter. Nobody would let a player interpret this as "I'm choosing to show a hand with no copper, but my hand has copper, so that fails and I do nothing".
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Awaclus

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 12:34:44 pm »
+1

Quote
If it said "Each other player discards a Copper card or reveals a hand with no Copper," I think standard Dominion interpretation would give the opponent the choice of which to do

The events are mutually exclusive so it doesn't matter. Nobody would let a player interpret this as "I'm choosing to show a hand with no copper, but my hand has copper, so that fails and I do nothing".
But that's how it should be interpreted because that's how Tournament works.
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DG

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 01:03:04 pm »
0

There's no point arguing for nonsense that defies the common use of English language, logic, and fair play all at the same time. You're not a lawyer are you?
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AJD

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 01:10:26 pm »
0

What I'm trying to do is reason back, from what we know the cards are actually supposed to do, to the principles of interpreting what's written on them.
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Asper

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 02:05:56 pm »
+2

There's no point arguing for nonsense that defies the common use of English language, logic, and fair play all at the same time. You're not a lawyer are you?

Dominion is not simple english language, but instead uses special terms associated with the rules of the game.
Also Dominion "logic" is not normal logic, but a set of sequenced directions. Normally, "X or Y" means X,Y, or both are true. "Do X or Y" in Dominion means TRY doing one, but not that any will become true. The parantheses seem to be there exactly to include those rules of normal logic you mean.
Fair play might be a point, but that's about the same as saying "Come on! We all know that's not what the card's supposed to do!". We have a card where this applies, and it's Pirate Ship. Generally, i don't think that's an argument you should use, though.

Brando Commando

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 10:30:05 am »
0

What I'm trying to do is reason back, from what we know the cards are actually supposed to do, to the principles of interpreting what's written on them.

This is why I used to post. But then I got sick of it because people didn't understand the point.
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Brando Commando

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 10:38:14 am »
+2

Parentheses are meaningful!

I think.

Cutpurse says: "Each other player discards a Copper card (or reveals a hand with no Copper)."

If it said "Each other player discards a Copper card or reveals a hand with no Copper," I think standard Dominion interpretation would give the opponent the choice of which to do. And then, if you had Copper in hand, you could choose "reveal a hand with no Copper", and then just "do as much as you can", as the saying goes (just like with Torturer, you can choose to gain a Curse even if no Curses are in the supply).

Obviously you can't do this, so we have to infer that "X (or Y)" doesn't mean the same thing as "X or Y" on Dominion cards.

I spent five minutes thinking about why you were wrong, but then concluded that you're probably right. Good job.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 02:56:00 pm »
0

Parentheses are meaningful!

I think.

Cutpurse says: "Each other player discards a Copper card (or reveals a hand with no Copper)."

If it said "Each other player discards a Copper card or reveals a hand with no Copper," I think standard Dominion interpretation would give the opponent the choice of which to do. And then, if you had Copper in hand, you could choose "reveal a hand with no Copper", and then just "do as much as you can", as the saying goes (just like with Torturer, you can choose to gain a Curse even if no Curses are in the supply).

Obviously you can't do this, so we have to infer that "X (or Y)" doesn't mean the same thing as "X or Y" on Dominion cards.

I spent five minutes thinking about why you were wrong, but then concluded that you're probably right. Good job.

Haha, yes. I had the exact same experience.
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werothegreat

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 06:53:41 pm »
+1

I keep thinking the title here is "Parantheses are mean" because of how it's cut off in the subforum preview.

I still agree with the statement.
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Emeric

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Re: Parentheses are meaningful
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 05:36:12 am »
0

Rats have the same Parantheses
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