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werothegreat

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Advisor
« on: September 21, 2013, 01:56:28 pm »
+7

(WIP)


Who likes complicated cards?  I know I do.  Some are complicated purely in mechanics, and others are complicated in how to play it properly.  Advisor falls into this latter category.  At first glance, it may seem weak - why should I let my opponent choose what I draw?  But with proper use, it can be quite effective.

What does it do?

Advisor is a variant on Laboratory in much the same way Envoy is a variant on Smithy.  It reveals three cards from your deck, and your opponent chooses which two of those you draw.  After that, you're free to play another Action.  It falls firmly in the category of Non-terminal draw, just with the added twist of player interaction.  As this effect is rather obviously not as good as an actual Laboratory, it's cheaper, making it a possible opening card.

How should I use it?

A good point of reference for Advisor is Menagerie, as they require almost completely opposite decks to function.  Menagerie requires a deck with high diversity (or at least a means of discarding duplicates from your hand), while Advisor requires a deck with low diversity.  Think about it - if you reveal an Estate, a Copper and a Hunting Grounds, obviously your opponent is going to make you discard the Hunting Grounds.  But if you reveal three Silvers...  you get the gist.  Advisor likes decks with, if not low diversity, than at least low diversity in card power - decks with multiple copies of cards of similar strength.  To this end, Advisor really likes other Advisors.  +2 Cards is still +2 Cards, and a barrage of Advisors can still bring you up to $8, even if it is through all Coppers.  Similarly, Advisors like heavy trashing.  If you have no junk cards, you won't care what's discarded to Advisor.

Another good point of reference is Warehouse.  Yes, Warehouse decreases your handsize, but the key difference I want to talk about is that Warehouse lets you choose what to discard, while Advisor lets someone else choose.  With Warehouse, you'll be discarding Coppers, Estates and useless Actions, while with Advisor, you'll be discarding Golds, Villages and terminal draw cards.  So if you chance to trigger a reshuffle mid-turn, with Warehouse, you've now screwed over your next turn, because your deck is now full of your worst (or least useful) cards; with Advisor, there is no screwing - your deck is now full of some of your best cards in high concentration.  So an Advisor player doesn't mind as much if they trigger a reshuffle, though if you have fewer than three cards in your deck/discard, you should probably stop playing Advisors, since you'll never draw that last card.

Remember that the two strengths of Advisor are 1) its cheapness and 2) its cycling power.  You can get lots of them, and cycling through three cards, drawing two of them, is usually very nice.  En masse, your opponent just won't know what to discard half the time, and what they make you discard will often not matter, because you'll still get two decent cards anyway.

What works well with Advisor?

An engine of just Advisors can function quite well - a deck full of Advisors and Silvers will be quite good at purchasing Provinces.  However, an Advisor-BM deck runs a very high risk of stalling after the first post-greening reshuffle - once you start revealing two Victory cards to Advisor, you're somewhat screwed.  To that end, keep filling your deck with Advisors and Treasures.

Advisor also does well as a precursor to a better engine.  Open with Advisor and Silver, and use your expanded hands to start picking up engine pieces - Border Village and Stonemason are very nice for this, as they don't require you to rely on your Advisors to draw a +Buy card.  Once you've started your engine, you can trash away your Advisors - Remodel them into engine pieces or Golds, or Stonemason them into Silvers.

Advisor does not do well with "key card" strategies.  For instance, if there are no Villages on the board, but there is Monument or Goons, Advisor would be a terrible choice, as you would always be forced to discard that key card.

There's a certain amount of synergy with any card that likes large hands.  Secret Chamber is decent, as it's crappy enough in general that your opponent probably won't make you discard it.  Bank is also nice, but it is expensive, your opponent will most likely make you discard it, and it doesn't come with +Buy.

How do I counter an Advisor deck?

Be aware of what your opponent has already played this reshuffle.  Not all Advisor reveals will be obvious Estate-Estate-Gold type deals - if they reveal two Hunting Grounds a Farming Village, you have to consider whether they have the Actions in hand already to play both Hunting Grounds, or if they'd be drawn dead without the Farming Village (to this end, Advisor players should avoid any card that makes them reveal their hand).  Like with most things, junking Attacks are very useful here, as they help narrow down the possible "good" options revealed by Advisor.  If there's one or more junking Attack on the board, you should probably reconsider buying Advisor.

Synergies:
*Any homogeneous strategy
*Transitions into better engines
*Cards that like large handsizes
*Trashing

Anti-synergies:
*Opponent's junkers
*"Key card" strategies
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 02:20:25 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 02:04:40 pm »
0

One synergy not mentioned is with cards that don't care what you draw, Secret Chamber, Cellar, and especially Storeroom.  You need a high concentration of these cards, though, so that your opponent isn't continually discarding them.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 02:06:01 pm »
+3

werothegreat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 02:06:31 pm »
0

One synergy not mentioned is with cards that don't care what you draw, Secret Chamber, Cellar, and especially Storeroom.  You need a high concentration of these cards, though, so that your opponent isn't continually discarding them.

I actually just added a paragraph about that, probably as you were reading the original.
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werothegreat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 02:11:21 pm »
0

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9150.0

I find two things interesting:

1) We differ in certain strategies, such as when to buy Advisor

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article
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soulnet

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 02:14:03 pm »
0

"which of those two" should be "which two of those"

I think putting "To this end, Advisor players should avoid any card that makes them reveal their hand. " under the counter section is confusing. It is certainly a nice advise :P, but I would move it to other section, because it is advise no how to play advisor, not against it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 02:25:21 pm »
0

"which of those two" should be "which two of those"

I think putting "To this end, Advisor players should avoid any card that makes them reveal their hand. " under the counter section is confusing. It is certainly a nice advise :P, but I would move it to other section, because it is advise no how to play advisor, not against it.
You can Ambassador your opponent some Menageries to counter his Advisor strategy!
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florrat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 03:42:54 pm »
+3

However, an Advisor-BM deck runs a very high risk of stalling after the first post-greening reshuffle - once you start revealing two Victory cards to Advisor, you're somewhat screwed.  To that end, keep filling your deck with Advisors and Treasures.
I doubt whether Advisor BM beats pure BM. Big Money decks are usually very high variance, so I think an advisor has similar strength as a pure cantrip, which is of course not worth the opportunity cost. In the quoted sentences you suggest that Advisor BM is a thing, while I think it's terrible. And if you add some terminals to Advisor BM, then the advisors will hurt you more by discarding those terminals.

Advisor also does well as a precursor to a better engine.  Open with Advisor and Silver, and use your expanded hands to start picking up engine pieces - Border Village and Stonemason are very nice for this, as they don't require you to rely on your Advisors to draw a +Buy card.  Once you've started your engine, you can trash away your Advisors - Remodel them into engine pieces or Golds, or Stonemason them into Silvers.
Opening Advisor looks very bad to me - in general. After your first shuffle, on average your Advisor will draw CCE, which means Advisor is approximately a cycling copper, which is not good. And it's terrible when you reveal your silver (or other $3-card) with Advisor.

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article
If you're posting articles for respect, then I think you're doing it wrong. Making jokes is clearly the least time consuming way to earn respect on this forum. But yeah, I agree, your articles received very little respect (although your Rebuild article barely reaches double digit).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:44:11 pm by florrat »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 06:24:29 pm »
+1

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article

1. Your articles really seem to be quantity over quality.

2. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not a fan of your writing style. It's mostly that you write these in the first person. Try writing one without ever using the word "I".

EDIT: Yeah, I just looked over the article again. The conversational style really turns me off. It's a non-fiction piece. It should sound professional.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 06:29:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Robz888

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 07:08:54 pm »
+4

As this effect is rather obviously not as good as an actual Laboratory, it's cheaper, making it a possible opening card.

But you should point out here, Advisor is a terrible card to open with, yes?

An engine of just Advisors can function quite well - a deck full of Advisors and Silvers will be quite good at purchasing Provinces.  However, an Advisor-BM deck runs a very high risk of stalling after the first post-greening reshuffle - once you start revealing two Victory cards to Advisor, you're somewhat screwed.  To that end, keep filling your deck with Advisors and Treasures.

No... Advisor BM is not really a thing. Lab BM isn't really a thing either, and this is worse than that.

There's a certain amount of synergy with any card that likes large hands.  Secret Chamber is decent, as it's crappy enough in general that your opponent probably won't make you discard it.  Bank is also nice, but it is expensive, your opponent will most likely make you discard it, and it doesn't come with +Buy.

Bank doesn't work with Advisor. It's a super expensive card that you could miss all the time if Advisor draws it. Secret Chamber works a little bit kind of with Advisor, but I think it falls well short of "decent," because SC is just not a good card. Warehouse is the one you want to mention here, and even that is not like amazing.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9150.0

I find two things interesting:

1) We differ in certain strategies, such as when to buy Advisor

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article

Your articles are really just summaries of the obvious things about these cards, I think? Whereas the strategy articles that get a lot of likes tend to chart new territory and expose high level players to really innovative ways of thinking about cards. Think of what AI did with Rebuild, or what WW did with Duke.
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werothegreat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 08:21:56 pm »
0

My thoughts in the article are from my own experience with playing with it.  That said, I haven't played a ton of games with it, so if you want to disagree with my points, I won't really contest it.  If you prefer ednever's article, that's fine.

As for my writing style, that's just how I prefer to write.  I get the strategy in there, from my perspective, but what LastFootnote considers "professional" writing I just find really boring to write.  When I write, I want it to be interesting, personalized, even if it is a strategy article for a card game.

As to quantity over quality, I like to write.  And I take it as a given that other forumers will provide their own insight, which I'm more than happy to incorporate.  I just like to write, and I like Dominion.

Your articles are really just summaries of the obvious things about these cards, I think? Whereas the strategy articles that get a lot of likes tend to chart new territory and expose high level players to really innovative ways of thinking about cards. Think of what AI did with Rebuild, or what WW did with Duke.

Or what I did with Rats?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 08:30:16 pm »
+5

I am glad that you write these articles, if only because it starts a conversation each time, with a thread dedicated to that card.  If you enjoy writing and discussing Dominion, then I say keep going.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 10:10:53 pm »
0

One important thing to note: If you're just drawing Treasures with Advisor, it's probably not the way to go -- terminal draw is much better for that. Your Advisor needs to hit other actions to make it better than even close to Smithy (or Moat for that matter). This is why Advisor is so bad for BM -- you need to play 4 or 5 to get about the same effect as one play of Envoy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2013, 10:18:10 pm »
0

I think there was already an Advisor article somewhere in this forum...
(PPE: I see that the other article has been linked.)

Advisor can work without a homogeneous deck, if the deck as a whole is high quality.  If I reveal 3 good cards, it's not a big deal which one you discard.  On a similar but sadder note, the same is true if I reveal 3 bad cards.  The cards don't have to be the same.  Menagerie and Advisor can feasibly work together in a tight, high quality deck that makes use of a variety of components (though the synergy is still pretty low barring, say, lots of Knights).

There is one very important point you miss -- Advisor is great in engines that can already draw a large portion of the deck.  It's cheap and non-terminal, and a few Advisors may be enough to grease your engine and turn a "draw a lot" deck into "draw everything" deck.  If you're drawing everything by the end anyway, it doesn't matter what gets discarded.

Oh, one more important point -- you should really use the Advisor meme in some way. ;)
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werothegreat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 11:04:09 pm »
0

Oh, one more important point -- you should really use the Advisor meme in some way. ;)

I'd make one, except Quickmeme has become stupid, and I can't find the untampered Goko image to make my own.  Just pretend this is laid over an Advisor:


Hey, you should write more articles


about cards someone already wrote one about
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 12:36:44 am »
+3



I tried to upload it to memegenerator but it doesn't seem to be working.  I was going to make one that said

"Give me access / to your Facebook account"
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werothegreat

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 12:39:24 am »
0

It saddens me that Wormtongue was already used for iso's Minion, because he would have been perfect as the prototype picture for Advisor.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 04:12:42 am »
0

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article

It's already been covered to death, but the articles that get a lot of respect tend to have this feeling of "man, I really love this card, so I'm going to write an article about it" or "I think this card is very interesting." At least in my opinion, they have this personal touch to them despite being written in the second or third-person.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 04:45:59 am »
+3




http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/dominiate/play.html#BigMoney/AdvisorBM
(there's something wrong with the link btw... you have to replace AdvisorBM with a different strategy, then switch back to it.)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 04:51:22 am by ragingduckd »
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dondon151

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Re: Advisor
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 05:53:46 am »
+1

Only on Dominiate does 818/1000 = 0.816.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 06:16:07 am »
+2

The problem appears to be more that Dominiate cannot count to 1000.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 08:26:32 am »
+17

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9150.0

I find two things interesting:

1) We differ in certain strategies, such as when to buy Advisor

2) he gets 17 respect from that article, when I don't think I've ever broken double digit respect for an article

I understand very well the disappointment and frustration you feel when you write things with such great pleasure and enthusiasm, share it with others hoping they will experience the same, and then mostly receive lackluster responses and criticism instead of the gratitude and respect you had been expecting. It's all the more annoying when someone else who appears to be doing the exact same work is treated differently, when he does receive all the laurels and respect you rightfully feel should be yours. These feelings are completely natural, and if I or any other human being found himself in your situation, we would feel exactly the same.

The truth is that the reactions you receive are not in any way an assessment of your intentions, not a judgment of your high-spirited enthusiasm and your pleasure in writing, nor a condemnation of your drive to educate others and the desire to share your passion for the game. Instead the reactions solely reflect how much strategic value and insight your writings provide to the players reading them.

For almost every experienced Dominion player, this just happens to be very little. Most of your articles are attractively worded elaborations upon the cards' basic mechanics, things that most players will have figured out on their own after playing a few games with or even just thinking about the card. And what's even worse, they contain quite a number of things that are just blatantly wrong. To give a specific example: any player with a solid grasp of the fundamentals should be able to see right away that strategies like Advisor-BM and combos like Advisor-Bank are simply terrible, yet the former features prominently in this article, implying that it's a viable strategy, and the latter has been proposed as a combo in a separate post. A new player who reads this article and briefly glances over that other post will conclude "okay, so Advisor-BM is something decent, as long as I keep buying lots of Advisors, and I should also be buying a sizeable number of Banks if they are available!", i.e. reading these writings will actually make him a worse player.

How to remedy this? Well, that's going to take you quite a bit of effort, because the way to write better articles is not to simply keep writing them and incorporate some of the criticism you receive, as the writing of a strategy article is not an independent skill-set; it's a skill that's strongly correlated with your skill as a Dominion player. So if you really want to write better articles, if you want to write insightful articles that expand strategic boundaries, the kind of articles that receive a lot of upvotes, I advise you to stop writing articles altogether for a while and instead channel your energy and the great enthusiasm you obviously have for this game into becoming a better player. Start identifying the holes in your game. Develop your fundamentals. Post in the help section the games that gave you trouble, and I and quite a few others who happened to have progressed a little further along the infinitely long road towards Dominion mastery will be happy to help you on your way.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 02:25:04 pm »
+3

SheCantSayNo, you seem to be on a roll with these long, encouraging, inspirational Dominion posts. They make me feel all fuzzy inside :)
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 03:01:48 pm »
+8

SheCantSayNo, you seem to be on a roll with these long, encouraging, inspirational Dominion posts. They make me feel all fuzzy inside :)

Indeed!  I'm starting to understand why she couldn't say no to him.
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Re: Advisor
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 06:04:41 pm »
+3

The problem appears to be more that Dominiate cannot count to 1000.

Or someone ran two single games, then clicked the run 1000 box without resetting.
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