Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Card Combos on the wiki  (Read 21937 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 09:05:07 pm »
0

In the particular case of HP/TS, there's no particular Terminal Silver associated with the combo, so that's fine.  WS/Gardens, on the other hand, is a referenced combo.  That's the name used.  I'd prefer to go by the name used.  And combos should be for things that aren't inherently obvious - yes, anything that discards from hand is going to do well with Tunnel, but that should be discussed in the Tunnel article.

That's only because there are more terminal Silvers than we can bother listing. There are only 3 unconditional $4-gainers. For Tunnel combos, on the other hand, you have the canonical Vault/Tunnel and Embassy/Tunnel, in addition to Oasis/Tunnel, Hamlet/Tunnel, Storeroom/Tunnel, etc.

Now it just so happens that the nature of Tunnel means that it has to be part of a combo in order for it to do anything at all (technically not entirely true, since its mere existence as a stack of $3-cost Victory cards can mean something), but I don't see why this is an exception when Hunting Party isn't.

FWIW, I think Storeroom/Tunnel deserves calling out because it has (I think?) the biggest search space out of any enabler, making it particularly good.  It can even trigger the same Tunnel(s) twice.

Young Witch is also a really good enabler, because your deck variance goes up so much in such games (Curses, Tunnels and Gold!) that the sifting is extra good.
Logged

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 09:14:19 pm »
0

FWIW, I think Storeroom/Tunnel deserves calling out because it has (I think?) the biggest search space out of any enabler, making it particularly good.  It can even trigger the same Tunnel(s) twice.

And perhaps even better, it later allows you to concentrate your Gold together with a +buy.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2013, 02:31:25 am »
0

In the particular case of HP/TS, there's no particular Terminal Silver associated with the combo, so that's fine.  WS/Gardens, on the other hand, is a referenced combo.  That's the name used.  I'd prefer to go by the name used.  And combos should be for things that aren't inherently obvious - yes, anything that discards from hand is going to do well with Tunnel, but that should be discussed in the Tunnel article.

That's only because there are more terminal Silvers than we can bother listing. There are only 3 unconditional $4-gainers. For Tunnel combos, on the other hand, you have the canonical Vault/Tunnel and Embassy/Tunnel, in addition to Oasis/Tunnel, Hamlet/Tunnel, Storeroom/Tunnel, etc.

Now it just so happens that the nature of Tunnel means that it has to be part of a combo in order for it to do anything at all (technically not entirely true, since its mere existence as a stack of $3-cost Victory cards can mean something), but I don't see why this is an exception when Hunting Party isn't.

FWIW, I think Storeroom/Tunnel deserves calling out because it has (I think?) the biggest search space out of any enabler, making it particularly good.  It can even trigger the same Tunnel(s) twice.

Young Witch is also a really good enabler, because your deck variance goes up so much in such games (Curses, Tunnels and Gold!) that the sifting is extra good.

And if Tunnel is the bane...
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 03:11:40 am »
0

In the particular case of HP/TS, there's no particular Terminal Silver associated with the combo, so that's fine.  WS/Gardens, on the other hand, is a referenced combo.  That's the name used.  I'd prefer to go by the name used.  And combos should be for things that aren't inherently obvious - yes, anything that discards from hand is going to do well with Tunnel, but that should be discussed in the Tunnel article.

That's only because there are more terminal Silvers than we can bother listing. There are only 3 unconditional $4-gainers. For Tunnel combos, on the other hand, you have the canonical Vault/Tunnel and Embassy/Tunnel, in addition to Oasis/Tunnel, Hamlet/Tunnel, Storeroom/Tunnel, etc.

Now it just so happens that the nature of Tunnel means that it has to be part of a combo in order for it to do anything at all (technically not entirely true, since its mere existence as a stack of $3-cost Victory cards can mean something), but I don't see why this is an exception when Hunting Party isn't.

FWIW, I think Storeroom/Tunnel deserves calling out because it has (I think?) the biggest search space out of any enabler, making it particularly good.  It can even trigger the same Tunnel(s) twice.

Young Witch is also a really good enabler, because your deck variance goes up so much in such games (Curses, Tunnels and Gold!) that the sifting is extra good.

And if Tunnel is the bane...

Still good enough to go for it a lot of the time.
Logged

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 06:02:29 am »
+4

For in-hand discarding, Embassy lets you discard from 9 cards, Storeroom gives up to 8 cards but only if you discard all four of the other cards in your hand, which you're often reluctant to do. Warehouse lets you choose from 7 cards, but is non-terminal so you can play two to see 10 cards in a turn. YW lets you choose from 6 and it gives a Curse.

Rebuild and Golem potentially can discard all of your Tunnels every time, but Golem is hard to buy, and Rebuild is hard to beat.
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2013, 11:11:08 am »
0

Good call on Embassy. I still think Storeroom wins out for low price and +buy though.
Logged

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2013, 11:58:22 am »
0

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Combo:_Workshop_and_Gardens

Since this is the one most of you are discussing, what do you think of what I've put so far?  And it's a wiki, so you can just change things if you don't like them.

I thought the sims indicated that you wanted to go hard on workshops before switching to gardens: I recall it being 9 WS in a non-mirror.

Edit: Yup. Found the text from Geronimoo's simulator:
"The ultimate combo for the basic game.
Surprisingly the optimal number of Workshops to get before starting to gain Gardens is 9.
When two players are going for the same strategy, you only want 2 Workshops before you start gardening."
I'll add this to the wiki

Is this really true outside simulators?  I mean, your opponent is surely going to try and deny you some gardens, right?  You've got at best 6 turns to get all the WS, leaving 11 turns for your opponent to deny you 3 gardens.  Or does garden denial benefit the rusher too much? 

(sorry for going a bit OT here)
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2013, 12:09:15 pm »
0

Good call on Embassy. I still think Storeroom wins out for low price and +buy though.
Storeroom may be stronger for activating tunnel, but bad for buying provinces.  Embassy is thus a better combo on its own b/c just getting embassies and (few) tunnels is very strong, whereas a storeroom/tunnel with no other draw or sifting is going to have a hard time getting to $8.  cf. http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130919/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1379624364369.txt - i don't know if my opponent just wasn't this right, or he was unlucky, or if masquerade is strong enough to overpower it, or what.  I mean, it took me 16 turns for me to get to 4 provinces (still buying prov's on turns 17 and 18), but the Storeroom Tunnel player here bought his first province on turn 15.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:14:44 pm by flies »
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2013, 01:21:22 pm »
0

Good call on Embassy. I still think Storeroom wins out for low price and +buy though.
Storeroom may be stronger for activating tunnel, but bad for buying provinces.  Embassy is thus a better combo on its own b/c just getting embassies and (few) tunnels is very strong, whereas a storeroom/tunnel with no other draw or sifting is going to have a hard time getting to $8.  cf. http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130919/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1379624364369.txt - i don't know if my opponent just wasn't this right, or he was unlucky, or if masquerade is strong enough to overpower it, or what.  I mean, it took me 16 turns for me to get to 4 provinces (still buying prov's on turns 17 and 18), but the Storeroom Tunnel player here bought his first province on turn 15.

Really?  All Storeroom needs to do is find 2 Golds and you've got yourself a Province.  It doesn't sound like it should be too difficult in a Storeroom-Tunnel deck.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2013, 02:19:32 pm »
0

Good call on Embassy. I still think Storeroom wins out for low price and +buy though.
Storeroom may be stronger for activating tunnel, but bad for buying provinces.  Embassy is thus a better combo on its own b/c just getting embassies and (few) tunnels is very strong, whereas a storeroom/tunnel with no other draw or sifting is going to have a hard time getting to $8.  cf. http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130919/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1379624364369.txt - i don't know if my opponent just wasn't this right, or he was unlucky, or if masquerade is strong enough to overpower it, or what.  I mean, it took me 16 turns for me to get to 4 provinces (still buying prov's on turns 17 and 18), but the Storeroom Tunnel player here bought his first province on turn 15.

Really?  All Storeroom needs to do is find 2 Golds and you've got yourself a Province.  It doesn't sound like it should be too difficult in a Storeroom-Tunnel deck.

well, it's hardly impossible.  Let's say you have a Storeroom and a gold in hand, and you discard 3 and hope to find another gold (or two), so you need two golds among 7 cards (8 - 1 Storeroom).  This isn't exactly improbable. 

With Embassy, you need two golds and either two copper or a third gold among 9 cards.

Seems like kind of a wash.  Maybe you're right.
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2013, 07:21:38 pm »
+3

With Embassy, you're basically just looking for a Gold. Until your deck is very green (or very junked up), you can pretty much assume that you'll find 5 Coppers or 3 Coppers + Silver in the 8 remaining cards.
Logged

TheMirrorMan

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2013, 11:10:03 pm »
0

A nice one I just discovered - Navigator + Doctor.
Logged
Here comes the mirror man. Says he's a people fan.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2013, 12:34:48 am »
0

A nice one I just discovered - Navigator + Doctor.

Navigator to see the next few cards, so you know what to name for Doctor?  This doesn't sound amazing to me.  You need a village to play both, and it's not really worth getting Navigator just to set up Doctor, especially since you need to somehow get both in hand with the extra actions.  Seems like a lot of work that doesn't get much more out of Doctor than just tracking your deck.  Better and along similar lines would be Apothecary or Cartographer, except Apothecary wants to keep Coppers so the trashing is less useful and Cartographer is strong filtering, so trashing is again less useful.
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2013, 12:48:55 am »
0

Navigator to pick a good time to overpay maybe?
Logged

TheMirrorMan

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 01:24:15 am »
0

Well no not exactly. Play the navigator and look at the next 5 cards. If there is a combo of junk/nice stuff in there, put them back with trash in first order.
Then overpay for the doctor for the amount needed (only pay for the trash, you know what's coming already).
I tried this in a game and it goes surprisingly fast.
Logged
Here comes the mirror man. Says he's a people fan.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2013, 12:33:06 pm »
0

Does anyone have any more good Counters?  Most of the current ones don't use any cards past Prosperity.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 05:59:22 pm »
0

Say, another idea: Would you guys consider Scheme/Pirate Ship a combo? Scheme is cheap and nonterminal, and makes it much easier to play Pirate Ship often (it also avoids a terminal collision between two Pirate Ships). While you usually want a card to be played several times during the same turn (better one good turn than two mediocre ones) Pirate Ship as a Seaside card just wants to be played often - so it profits more from Scheme than many other cards (theoretically).

But i might be overestimating what is just a positive interaction. What do you think?
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 06:30:35 pm »
0

Say, another idea: Would you guys consider Scheme/Pirate Ship a combo? Scheme is cheap and nonterminal, and makes it much easier to play Pirate Ship often (it also avoids a terminal collision between two Pirate Ships). While you usually want a card to be played several times during the same turn (better one good turn than two mediocre ones) Pirate Ship as a Seaside card just wants to be played often - so it profits more from Scheme than many other cards (theoretically).

But i might be overestimating what is just a positive interaction. What do you think?
They certainly have a positive interaction, but most of the time I would skip Pirate Ship even if I already had Schemes in my deck.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

TheMirrorMan

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2013, 05:19:19 am »
0

Well Scheme of course always goes nice in hand with any strong <$4 attack (Sea Hag e.g.).
I do understand the point, but a lot is dependant on the deck with Pirate Ship. Wouldn't go for that combo with Tunnels / (cheap ?) +$x cards in the deck / heavy trashers. It just helps your opponent instead of blocking him.

Another one that I did recently try is Ambassador/Pirate Ship. Throw over all the junk to your opponent, get a deck of less than five cards
You can buy some money if you want - but when you start buying greens, your deck is going to grow, so be careful. If you keep the decksize limited, his pirate ship can never reach anything. You on the other hand attack each and every turn. Of course, again, the conditions above still apply ...
Logged
Here comes the mirror man. Says he's a people fan.

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1265
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2013, 10:31:01 am »
0

Another one that I did recently try is Ambassador/Pirate Ship. Throw over all the junk to your opponent, get a deck of less than five cards
You can buy some money if you want - but when you start buying greens, your deck is going to grow, so be careful. If you keep the decksize limited, his pirate ship can never reach anything. You on the other hand attack each and every turn. Of course, again, the conditions above still apply ...

So... Pirate ship combos with having already won the ambassador war...?
Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1290
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1322
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2013, 12:38:53 pm »
0


Say, another idea: Would you guys consider Scheme/Pirate Ship a combo?
Another one that I did recently try is Ambassador/Pirate Ship.
Why is everyone trying to make combos with pirate ship? Are we that desperate to use Pirate Ship?  Both of these "combos" might work in a specific game when there is absolutely nothing else going on (although I would skip pirate ship on an ambassador board completely), but in my mind a combo has to be something that is a viable strategy in most games, regardless of other supporting cards.
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2013, 02:44:48 pm »
0

How about Storeroom/Philosopher's Stone, then?
Storeroom makes it a lot easier to get to 3$P and also provides the buy needed to help PS take off and make use of it once it has. It's not worse than the existing "Combo" PS/Herbalist, i think.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12847
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2013, 03:38:01 pm »
0

How about Storeroom/Philosopher's Stone, then?
Storeroom makes it a lot easier to get to 3$P and also provides the buy needed to help PS take off and make use of it once it has. It's not worse than the existing "Combo" PS/Herbalist, i think.
That sounds pretty good on paper, I don't see why it wouldn't work in practice.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2013, 03:40:35 pm »
0

How about Storeroom/Philosopher's Stone, then?
Storeroom makes it a lot easier to get to 3$P and also provides the buy needed to help PS take off and make use of it once it has. It's not worse than the existing "Combo" PS/Herbalist, i think.

It also provides filtering to get to PS more quickly.
Logged

Warfreak2

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1149
  • KC->KC->[Scavenger, Scavenger, Lookout]
  • Respect: +1324
    • View Profile
    • Music what I do
Re: Card Combos on the wiki
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2013, 04:06:14 pm »
0

And increases the number of cards in the discard pile (as opposed to your hand).
Logged
If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.139 seconds with 20 queries.