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[terminalCopper]

Trading an estate for two coppers is very similar to trading a VP Chip for a silver: Total $ is increased by 2, number of cards by 1, victory points decreases by 1.
Early on, a silver is better, later on, the VP chip. But the difference is never huge (c'mon, egde-case me!).

[Awaclus]

Trading an estate for two coppers is very similar to trading a VP Chip for a silver: Total $ is increased by 2, number of cards by 1, victory points decreases by 1.
Early on, a silver is better, later on, the VP chip. But the difference is never huge (c'mon, egde-case me!).

This isn't quite correct since a Silver brings your average $ in a 5-card hand closer to $10 which is a good thing if you're going for Provinces, a Copper brings your average $ in a 5-card hand closer to $5 which is a bad thing if it's already over $5 (and even if it isn't over $5 yet, if it's going to be over $5 in the future, Copper will slow that process down). Now, the difference between two Coppers and a single dead card isn't that big in a game with nothing but money and Stonemason (why would anyone build that deck is beyond me), but it gets bigger and bigger (in the favor of the dead card) the more you have important cards in your deck that you want to play again as soon as possible.

[terminalCopper]

Trading an estate for 2 coppers brings me closer to an average of 10$.

From the economical point of view (ignoring VP), trading an estate for estate+silver is like gaining a silver, which brings you closer to an average of 10$, right?
 And estate + silver has the same average value as copper + copper (variance is different, though).

[Awaclus]

Trading an estate for 2 coppers brings me closer to an average of 10$

...if your average amount of money is low.

[Warfreak2]

Mathematically, in a deck with E Estates, C Coppers and S Silvers, the money density goes from (C+2S)/(E+C+S) to (C+2S+2)/(E+C+S+1), which is the same as adding a Silver.

However, why you care about money density in a deck with Stonemason is quite beyond me. Normally Stonemason is for building an engine, in which case what you care about isn't money density, but action density, number of stop cards, and total spending power. Estate->2*Copper only helps the last one, a little, normally it's done at a stage in the game where it's barely relevant, and at a cost to the two more important factors.

[terminalCopper]

... which is the same as adding a Silver.

Exactly. And as we know, some decks like silver, some don't.

[soulnet]

However, why you care about money density in a deck with Stonemason is quite beyond me. Normally Stonemason is for building an engine, in which case what you care about isn't money density, but action density, number of stop cards, and total spending power. Estate->2*Copper only helps the last one, a little, normally it's done at a stage in the game where it's barely relevant, and at a cost to the two more important factors.

Well, Terminal-Draw+BM is quite capable of spiking an early $8, and getting SM+two golds seems like the optimal move.

[achmed_sender]

However, why you care about money density in a deck with Stonemason is quite beyond me. Normally Stonemason is for building an engine, in which case what you care about isn't money density, but action density, number of stop cards, and total spending power. Estate->2*Copper only helps the last one, a little, normally it's done at a stage in the game where it's barely relevant, and at a cost to the two more important factors.

Well, Terminal-Draw+BM is quite capable of spiking an early $8, and getting SM+two golds seems like the optimal move.

The on-gain is only able to gain actions...

[werothegreat]

Given that Stonemason is no-way-in-hell a BM card, there is no reason, short of Gardens, to want to trash Estates for Coppers.  So this discussion is rather moot.  I'm putting up the article.

[terminalCopper]

Given that Stonemason is no-way-in-hell a BM card, there is no reason, short of Gardens, to want to trash Estates for Coppers. 

It's often a wrong move, but sometimes, mostly at the beginning, you want to increase your money density even if you plan to build an engine, don't you?

[werothegreat]

And I think Gardens is a nombo with Stonemason - Stonemason wants engine decks, not slog decks, and turning Estates into two Coppers is trading 1 VP for 1/10 VP per Gardens you have, to a max of 8/10 (12/10 in 3-4 player), and how often are you going to get all the Gardens?  Trashing your Estate is a net loss in terms of VP for a very marginal deck improvement.

[werothegreat]

Given that Stonemason is no-way-in-hell a BM card, there is no reason, short of Gardens, to want to trash Estates for Coppers. 

It's often a wrong move, but sometimes, mostly at the beginning, you want to increase your money density even if you plan to build an engine, don't you?

In hand, an Estate and a Silver is the same as two Coppers, yes.  However, the Silver is better for your deck because you now have a higher maximum coin yield (given a five card hand).  Five Coppers is worse than four Coppers and a Silver.

[eHalcyon]

Trading an estate for two coppers is very similar to trading a VP Chip for a silver: Total $ is increased by 2, number of cards by 1, victory points decreases by 1.
Early on, a silver is better, later on, the VP chip. But the difference is never huge (c'mon, egde-case me!).

Not that similar.  First case is trading one really bad card for two pretty bad cards.  Second case is trading something usually inconsequential for one decent card (depending on your strategy).  The impact on the deck is pretty different for all four.  My intuition says that it's a wash between 1 Estate and 2 Coppers, but I'm still not certain.  Having a Silver is usually better than having a VP chip.  Consider Monument vs. Explorer.  Both give terminal +$2, Monument gives +1VP while Explorer gives you a Silver.  OK, sometimes it gives you Gold/+$3 instead, but that's rare -- it's mostly a Silver gainer.

And I think Gardens is a nombo with Stonemason - Stonemason wants engine decks, not slog decks, and turning Estates into two Coppers is trading 1 VP for 1/10 VP per Gardens you have, to a max of 8/10 (12/10 in 3-4 player), and how often are you going to get all the Gardens?  Trashing your Estate is a net loss in terms of VP for a very marginal deck improvement.

For Gardens at least, the deck improvement can be pretty significant.  Copper is great to have when your target is just $4.  Also, it's a bit of a trap to think purely in fractional VP, because that's not how the game is scored.  If that extra card pushes you over the threshold, it's worth it.  Since you can't be certain whether or not that'll be the case at the end of the game, you have to make the judgement call and the improvement in the deck probably makes it a good move.

But that's not all it does.  Stonemason definitely combos with Gardens for three reasons:
1. It lets you gain 3 cards with a single buy.
2. It increases your deck size on play, acting as pseudo+Buy.
3. It helps you quickly end the game on piles (both with the overpay and with the play effect), which is important for rushes.

Buy Stonemason and get extra X cards.  Crack those open into other things.  Turn Silvers into Estates, Estates into Coppers.  You can probably end the game on Stonemasons, Estates and Gardens pretty quickly.

[werothegreat]

Consider Monument vs. Explorer.  Both give terminal +$2, Monument gives +1VP while Explorer gives you a Silver.  OK, sometimes it gives you Gold/+$3 instead, but that's rare -- it's mostly a Silver gainer.

You know, I don't really ever think of Explorer.  I mean, I'm aware of its existence in that I know all of the cards in Seaside and Explorer is one of them, but I never really think about it.  I think about Scout because it's so bad, and really about almost every other Dominion card...  but I always am sort of surprised when I look at Explorer and read what it does.

[ednever]

Thought I would share this Stonemason turn:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130918/log.516d0e09e4b082c74d7aacc1.1379538889026.txt

I was worried that I made the wrong call ignoring Soothsayer, but the Foragers kept it reasonably at bay. And then the last turn made me very happy:

ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Forager, Advisor, Stonemason
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   places cards in hand: Forager, Stonemason
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: King's Court, King's Court, King's Court
pt6776   discards King's Court
ednever   places cards in hand: King's Court, King's Court
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Forager, Hamlet, Advisor
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   places cards in hand: Forager, Hamlet
ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Market
ednever   draws Market
ednever   plays Market
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   draws Advisor
ednever   plays Market
ednever   draws King's Court
ednever   plays King's Court

-> At this point I realized I could do something fun...

ednever   plays Stonemason
ednever   trashes King's Court
ednever   gains Pillage
ednever   gains Soothsayer

-> Nothing better than gaining a card and then playing it the same turn for a surprise attack. Actually there is...

ednever   plays Stonemason
ednever   trashes Forager
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   plays Stonemason
ednever   trashes Forager
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Advisor
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   reveals: Hamlet, Pillage
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   places cards in hand: Hamlet, Pillage
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Hamlet, Hamlet, Soothsayer
pt6776   discards Soothsayer
ednever   places cards in hand: Hamlet, Hamlet
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Hamlet
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   reveals: Soothsayer, Advisor
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   places cards in hand: Hamlet, Soothsayer

-> ...gaining a card and then playing it three times on the same turn.

ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Soothsayer
ednever   gains Gold
pt6776   gains Curse
pt6776   draws Silver
ednever   plays Soothsayer
ednever   gains Gold
pt6776   gains Curse
pt6776   draws Hamlet
ednever   plays Soothsayer
ednever   gains Gold
pt6776   gains Curse
pt6776   draws Gold

-> ...Followed by playing the other card three times to discard 3 cards with Pillage...

ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Pillage
ednever   trashes Pillage
pt6776   reveals Copper, Advisor, Forager, Soothsayer, Advisor, Silver, Hamlet, Gold
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   gains Spoils
ednever   gains Spoils
ednever   plays Pillage
ednever   trashes Pillage
pt6776   reveals Copper, Advisor, Forager, Soothsayer, Silver, Hamlet, Gold
pt6776   discards Advisor
ednever   gains Spoils
ednever   gains Spoils
ednever   plays Pillage
ednever   trashes Pillage
pt6776   reveals Copper, Forager, Soothsayer, Silver, Hamlet, Gold
pt6776   discards Hamlet
ednever   gains Spoils
ednever   gains Spoils

-> And then drawing the 3 gold and 3 Spoils that I just gained with the cards I gained earlier...

ednever   plays King's Court
ednever   plays Market
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Market
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Market
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Hamlet
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Hamlet
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Hamlet
ednever   draws Advisor
ednever   plays Advisor
ednever   reveals: Gold, Gold, Gold
pt6776   discards Gold
ednever   places cards in hand: Gold, Gold
ednever   plays Hamlet
ednever   draws Spoils
ednever   plays Hamlet
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   draws Gold
ednever   plays 4 Gold
ednever   plays Spoils
ednever   plays Spoils
ednever   plays Spoils
ednever   plays Spoils
ednever   plays Spoils
ednever   plays Spoils

-> And then end on piles by using the Stonemason a second time...

ednever   buys Stonemason
ednever   overpays for Stonemason with 7 coins
ednever   gains King's Court
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   buys Stonemason
ednever   overpays for Stonemason with 2 coins
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   buys Stonemason
ednever   overpays for Stonemason with 2 coins
ednever   gains Hamlet
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   buys Stonemason
ednever   overpays for Stonemason with 2 coins
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   gains Stonemason
ednever   buys Colony
ednever   gains Colony
ednever   buys Estate
ednever   gains Estate
ednever   buys Estate
ednever   gains Estate
ednever   shuffles deck
ednever   draws Colony, Soothsayer, Market, King's Court, Hamlet


Fun with breaking rocks!

Ed

[mail-mi]

and how often are you going to get all the Gardens? 

I did. Today. On a board with a gainer, Thief, and a buy card. I should'a saved the log.

[sudgy]

ed: that should go on best dominion moments...

[sudgy]

and how often are you going to get all the Gardens? 

I did. Today. On a board with a gainer, Thief, and a buy card. I should'a saved the log.

You mean this game?

[BadAssMutha]

Great article, but I'd add one very important synergy for Stonemason: cost reducers.

We all know that cost reducers work well in games with +buy, and it's no different for the Stonemason's virtual +buy. Using a cost reducer (Bridge, Highway, Quarry) before buying Stonemason can get you a lot more mileage out of the overpay - your cost reducer is basically working triple-duty. Not only do you get the SM for dirt cheap, you can hit your overpay target much easier. Couple this with regular +buy, and you have a nice little combo that can score lots of expensive cards on the cheap. The only thing to look out for with cost reducers (as you mention with Peddler) is that you don't drive your overpay target down to $0, which would render it un-gainable from Stonemason.

Here's a nifty play where I pick up 4 Nobles and 2 Cartographers with my 3 Stonemasons, and it's only Turn 5!

BadAMutha - draws Squire, Squire, Quarry, Quarry, Copper
---------- BadAMutha: turn 5 ----------
BadAMutha - plays Squire
BadAMutha - takes 2 actions
BadAMutha - plays Squire
BadAMutha - takes 2 buys
BadAMutha - plays Quarry
BadAMutha - plays Quarry
BadAMutha - plays Copper
BadAMutha - buys Stonemason
BadAMutha - overpays for Stonemason with 2 coins
BadAMutha - gains Nobles
BadAMutha - gains Nobles
BadAMutha - gains Stonemason
BadAMutha - buys Stonemason
BadAMutha - overpays for Stonemason with 2 coins
BadAMutha - gains Nobles
BadAMutha - gains Nobles
BadAMutha - gains Stonemason
BadAMutha - buys Stonemason
BadAMutha - overpays for Stonemason with 1 coin
BadAMutha - gains Cartographer
BadAMutha - gains Cartographer
BadAMutha - gains Stonemason

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20131015/log.513bdc80e4b0da6e3de056bb.1381862770589.txt

[TheMirrorMan]

Agree especially here with the last post.

Quarry + stonemason especially can be enormously strong - had that happen in one of my games.

Two coins and one quarry can give you two stables via stonemason - it's enormous.

[Puddleglumm]

The Goko bots go bonkers when stonemason and cantrips are on the board. Occasionally they will pull a nifty 3-pile ending, using the stonemasons to trash for VP at the last minute, but often they will just build a deck full of lighthouses and spies. I recommend "Stonemason, All" against bots for your entertainment needs. 

[Julle]

Stonemason is great on a Potion board - you can get a lot more out of your Potion each shuffle by using Stonemason to pick up two Alchemists/Familiars/Scrying Pools/Golems.  Then, once you're done with the Potion, turn it into two Silvers!  Or Estates, depending on how far along into the game you are.  Speaking of Potion cards, Vineyard is Stonemason's best friend.  Every time you buy Stonemason, your Vineyards go up a point.

In addition, in late game you can trash any potion costing card, except transmute, into two vineyards.